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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 4:18 pm 
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Hello local Epic experts! I feel like I've got enough games in that I'm getting the hang of the game and how to build a functional list, so I'm looking for some list critique.

Here's my current plan for 3000 points, using the Ghazghkull list:

Warband (425 points)
2x Nobz, 6x Boyz, 2x Grotz
3x Battlewagonz
1x Flakwagon
1x Gunwagon w/ Oddboy (Supa-Zzap-Gun)
Warlord

Warband (425 points)
2x Nobz, 6x Boyz, 2x Grotz
3x Battlewagonz
1x Flakwagon
1x Gunwagon w/ Oddboy (Supa-Zzap-Gun)

Big Warband (500 points, Break the Spirit)
4x Nobz, 12x Boyz, 4x Grotz
2x Big Gunz w/ Oddboyz (Soopagunz)

Landa (200 points)

Warband (250 points)
2x Nobz, 8x Boyz, 4x Grotz

Landa (200 points)

Warband (250 points)
2x Nobz, 8x Boyz, 4x Grotz

Blitz Brigade (200 points)
1x Flakwagon
2x Gunwagonz
1x Gunwagon w/ Oddboy (Supa-Zzap-Gun)

Blitz Brigade (200 points)
1x Flakwagon
2x Gunwagonz
1x Gunwagon w/ Oddboy (Supa-Zzap-Gun)

Kult of Speed (200 points)
8x Skorchaz

Fighta Skwadron (150 points)
3x Fighta Bombaz

The cheap Warbands go in the Landas, and the Break the Spirit Warband can garrison on a forward objective for an aggressive start, or on the Blitz for a more conservative approach. I was pretty happy with the performance of the mechanised Warbands in my last game and the Landas backed up by Fighta-Bomba squadron are a great mobile threat. The force has pretty high mobility and some air defense, with a few TK weapons scattered around for scaring off war engines.

Any glaring weaknesses? Anything I'm desperately missing that I'm not aware of? My meta-knowledge is still pretty poor - basically everything I've faced has had some variation of air-drop assault and speedy firefight units backed up by close air support and long-range war engine firepower, so that's what I've tried to build against. The list seems reasonably strong against Marines, but I worry it will get demolished by Tau AT-fire, and I've barely seen other armies on the table. Which matchups should I watch out for?

All advice appreciated! :)


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:19 pm 
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Quote:
Hello local Epic experts!
Not me! But I've played Orks once or twice and can give you a few things to consider.

Nice list. I like the two Landas a lot. Here's my critical comments which you should take with a grain of salt as the best list is always the one that works for you.

1. The Oddboys in the Warbands.

All I have to do is shoot at this unit once and not hit a thing and your 60cm gun range suddenly becomes 30cm due to the suppression rules. This always annoys me so I personally make every effort to include a second gunwagon in any unit that has an oddboy in it.

The other thing I don't like is you are taking a unit that normally prefers to get stuck into cc as soon as possible and you've upgraded it by 50 points with a character that you never want in an engagement.

2. The Oddboys in your Big Warband BTS

Again, similar to the previous point, I love putting an extra big gun or 2 in any formation like this. I shoot at you and miss and the BM means 30cm range for one of your Oddboys (although the other one stays at 60cm! This is exacerbated by the fact that your formation isn't overly mobile unlike the ones with Battlewagonz.

3. Where is your Warlord?

This is a tough one because if you put him in one of your Landa squads, you don't get his re-roll unless he's also on the board. Also, my Landa warbands usually only last for a turn after they assault so you're sacrificing your Warlord cheaply. I don't like putting him in the BTS because that makes that formation too juicy a target for someone to focus on. I'd like him in your mechanized warband so he can stay protected and run from any threats but in that last turn he can run over and claim an objective.

I hope this gives you a few ideas, but there's no reason you couldn't take this list for a spin as is to see how it plays!

Joel

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:30 pm 
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Thanks for giving it a look-over, Joel. :)
Quote:
1. The Oddboys in the Warbands.
They're a bit easy to limit via suppression, I agree. The idea was to create a "too many targets" problem for opponents - they need to put at least one BM on four formations to drop the range on all the TK weapons, so some of them should be able to get some full-range shots out there. They've also got the mobility to compensate for it to some extent.

If I spent the points on something else, it makes the Blitz Brigades an easy choice of target for suppressing fire, and I was a bit reluctant to have only two TK weapons (very vulnerable ones at that) in the list when facing Titans. Since Orks are basically forced to double (otherwise they fail their command rolls every goddamn time in my experience) it still gives the Supa-Zzaps an effective 90cm range under suppression. Against most lists, the mechanised Warbands will be trying to engage rather than shoot, but I felt I couldn't run the risk of being unable to scratch war engines with reinforced armour in lists that rely heavily on them.

The second Gunwagon in each unit is a good idea but I can't think what I'd cut to make them fit! (I'd also have to raise the cost of the BTS formation.)
Quote:
2. The Oddboys in your Big Warband BTS
Yeah, I've been wondering about them. I'd basically hoped that they would sit near centre-field and project a 60cm bombardment threat on overwatch, forcing opponents to play around them to some extent so my other Warbands could get into position. I didn't mind spending the points at the time because I was just trying to make a unit that cost more than the others, but you're making me question whether 150 points is worth spending just to give an opponent some slightly tougher choices in the first turn.

This is also a formation I haven't tried on the table - in the list I used last game the BTS was a big Blitz Brigade, which I decided was too vulnerable to breaking (since it had no Nobz). I wanted to try out something I could garrison and overwatch with, but I'm not particularly attached to this setup... it's just a struggle to find any formation that's equally resilient while still projecting any kind of credible threat for 450-500 points. (I think it would be fun to run a 'uge Kult of Speed instead, but I don't have the models for it at this stage.)
Quote:
3. Where is your Warlord?
He's in the first mechanised Warband. I had basically the same thought process. ;)

I've played one game with a similar list (big Blitz as the BTS, no KoS, extra Fight-Bomma) against Colm and it worked pretty well! I did have some lucky rolls - my Warlord's formation got assaulted by teleporting Terminators (with Devastators and a Thunderhawk standing by to provide supporting fire) and managed to wipe them out and win the combat. They still broke, ran and died, but Colm had to throw another two or three units into the jaws of death to finish them off. The Blitz Brigades provided a nice distraction - they're incredibly easy to break, but it forces the opponent to put fire into them that would otherwise be killing off the main hitters. The Landa units were just great, providing both a serious threat that forced Colm to maneuver more defensively, and the ability to smash units that venture out on their own to grab objectives.

Thanks for the feedback - you've given me plenty to think about! :)


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:18 am 
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Have you considered a Stompa Mob for the BTS? It can garrison as all units have a speed of 15cm, 4+ reinforced armour makes them quite durable. I haven't looked up whether you can upgrade them with Oddboys but even without those they can put out a lot of Big Gun shots at 45cm. And they have the option of MW CC attacks to make those pesky Terminators think twice.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:05 pm 
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I thought about using Stompas, but I think in the 450-500 points range you can only get about 6-7 (with maybe some extra Killa Kanz) in a unit - that seems way too easy to break for my comfort, and once broken, they'll likely stay broken. They can't shed BMs quickly (no Nobz) so becoming broken seems inevitable over the course of a game.

I remember your units of Stompas being pretty resilient against my Gargants, but that list has hardly any activations for throwing out BMs, plus you had a giant rock to hide behind. I think your unit was closer to 10 Stompas (around 600 points)? It was definitely hard to break for the Gargants (who were too slow to put much fire on it) but I think this list would have a much easier time with mobile TK and assault Landas.

Good to keep in mind, though - I've got a ton of Stompas so making them work would be great.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:24 pm 
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6 Stompas is 400pts, mine was a huge mob (10 for 650pts), which I think is well costed as it works out about even with an Imperial Guard tank company. You could do 6 Stompas and 3 Dreads for 505pts. But yeah, morale is a problem, or at least a risk. It would be nice to be able to bring along a Nob or two for Leader.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:35 pm 
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Would it maybe be more effective (at 500 points) to bring three Stompas and a Supa-Stompa? You lose the ability to garrison, but you have better firepower and a Fearless unit (to mitigate the breaking problem a bit). On the other hand the Supa-Stompa becomes a magnet for enemy TK fire, so perhaps it's actually less survivable than four Stompas depending on the matchup.

Another 500-point option would be a Warband with 4 Nobz, 8 Boyz, 4 Grotz, 2 Dreadnoughts, a Flakwagon and a Stompa - more vulnerable to a mix of AP & AT shooting (though the infantry will mostly have cover), but projecting a forward-garrison AA bubble and packing some MW CC attacks. Seems like a decent alternative to my original warband, especially when facing air assaults.

Man, why is the Speed Freeks list so garbage? You can buy Landas but you can't put anything in them except four Deth Koptas. A Fortress Mob can add Flakwagons, but no Gunwagons to protect them from being singled out among the war engines. You can get a formation of Warbikes with Scout but only in denominations of five, and you can't buy them any Nob Bikers. You can't even put Nob Bikers in a Kult of Speed! Bluh. You can build a better Speed Freek-theme list out of the Ghaz list. :/


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:46 pm 
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Man, why is the Speed Freeks list so garbage? You can buy Landas but you can't put anything in them except four Deth Koptas.
Landa's can also transport 10 Warbikes.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:03 pm 
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ask anyone who has faced 134 scorchas if the speed freak list is terrible :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:25 pm 
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Quote:
Landa's can also transport 10 Warbikes.
True! Warbikes =/= LVs gets me every time. I don't think that makes up for the list's other shortcomings, but maybe it does?
Quote:
ask anyone who has faced 134 scorchas if the speed freak list is terrible :wink:
It'll be my lack of experience talking, but I can't see how that would even begin to work effectively. The opponent's infantry climb in their transports and then you... what, just try to hide from them all and dash for the objectives on turn 3, hoping you've still got some unbroken units left? (Also, the Ghaz version of that would be exactly the same except for a Warlord instead of a Bad Ork Biker, wouldn't it?)


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:48 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
ask anyone who has faced 134 scorchas if the speed freak list is terrible :wink:
It'll be my lack of experience talking, but I can't see how that would even begin to work effectively. The opponent's infantry climb in their transports and then you... what, just try to hide from them all and dash for the objectives on turn 3, hoping you've still got some unbroken units left? (Also, the Ghaz version of that would be exactly the same except for a Warlord instead of a Bad Ork Biker, wouldn't it?)
its a list that engages u to death...big formations with FF4+ can chew up most enemy formations and the 30cm movement means they can get about the board fairly easily...it used to be a regular army in the local scene and its owner pwned many a player with it...Jason would regularly orchestrate engagements where at least 1 other formation would be there for supporting fire and it was usually terminal for the formation being attacked...also its a nasty prospect to face as it covers a lot of the board so its tough to stop it getting in ur face...

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:50 pm 
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I reckon the Speed Freak list is the best one!

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:47 pm 
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its a list that engages u to death...big formations with FF4+ can chew up most enemy formations and the 30cm movement means they can get about the board fairly easily...it used to be a regular army in the local scene and its owner pwned many a player with it...Jason would regularly orchestrate engagements where at least 1 other formation would be there for supporting fire and it was usually terminal for the formation being attacked...also its a nasty prospect to face as it covers a lot of the board so its tough to stop it getting in ur face...
Fair enough, sounds like it could work. I guess I don't really see why the formations you engage couldn't get into base with a bunch of the Skorchas, drop them to CC 6+ and smash them. The supporting fire potential is pretty brutal, though!
Quote:
I reckon the Speed Freak list is the best one!
What does it offer that you particularly like?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:30 pm 
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How about Blitz Brigades that can have Nobz? Fortress units (that can have Nobz)!! Only two units can't have Nobz! 45cm range MW4+ Oddboyz with d3 powerfields!! (Mekboy Speedsta) Oddboyz with survivability! Yes I know it means losing TK, but Macro is still very good!

Everything I've ever learned about Epic boils down to it being a game of mobility and the speed freaks are extremely mobile. Also, Nobz! Clear those blast markers much faster!!

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:20 pm 
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Everything I've ever learned about Epic boils down to it being a game of mobility and the speed freaks are extremely mobile. Also, Nobz! Clear those blast markers much faster!!
+1

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