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 Post subject: Epic - Use of Titans
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:02 pm 
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Since I'm starving for some tactical conversation lately, and I've bounced off the Malifaux Wave 3 beta due to burnout, I thought I'd keep the Epic activity here going with a new discussion.

My first games of Epic used two Mega-Gargants at a hefty ~1050 points each (in 3000-point games, which seems to be standard). It immediately became apparent that there were some problems with this setup - the Gargants packed a horrendous amount of firepower but could only bring it to bear against one target per turn each, they moved slowly and had trouble crossing the board to capture objectives, and having only four activations made it easy for opponents to run rings around my forces (especially those with sky-high Strategy ratings, like Space Marines, who could afford to retain two activations before I got a chance to act and still had plenty left over once my whole force was done).

The Mega-Gargants also have terrible survivability due to a lack of Reinforced Armour, and I subsequently dropped them back to Great Gargants at ~900 points each, but found they still suffered from the same issues.

In my recent list-building efforts, I've found it increasingly difficult to justify spending the points required to field a Gargant of any kind, and indeed War Engines in general (other than air transports). In part, this is probably a peculiarity of the Ghazghkull list, which requires that a Great Gargant include your Warlord, making it both the Supreme Commander and the Break the Spirit objective (which I'm not comfortable with). They also compete with Landas.

In the tournaments I've attended so far, I noticed that lists tended to fall into two categories: all-Titan lists (including Ork Gargants and Imperial Titans) which included a small number (generally 4-5) of heavy war engines and basically nothing else; and non-Titan lists which focused on air superiority, mobility and activation control (generally 8-10 formations) with only a few low-budget war engines (mostly the dirt-cheap Warhounds).

Both of these list types seemed to do well. Conspicuously missing were lists that used an expensive war engine as a central element, combined with multiple cheap activations for board control.

This made me curious - do mixed forces simply not work as well as the focused either-or style? How much of this phenomenon stems from the tendency of army lists to lump aircraft and Titans into the same restricted pool? Given that restriction, are aircraft simply a more effective choice for most armies, or are there other reasons not to choose Titans?

Additionally, how do the people who run all-Titan lists deal with being out-activated, out-maneuvered and attacked from all sides (including the air)? What sort of play style do these lists lend themselves to - are they aggressive, defensive, evasive? How do you keep your Titans alive, given that each loss is a huge blow to both your firepower and your ability to capture objectives?

I (and my sad, retired Gargants) look forward to hearing people's thoughts. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Epic - Use of Titans
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:30 am 
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Okay I will weigh in on my thoughts about list building and war engines (specifcally titans)

1. most lists are generally limited to a Ware Engine / Air Support max 1/3 of points spent taht will limit what you see at the tournament standard size of 3000 pts. When yu look at thses sections of the different army lists they have been balanced with this in mind taht you just cant get what you probably would like to fit in the 1/3 limit at 3k. For example a Tau Manta weighs in at 650pts, and AX-10's are 375pts so you cant fit both in a 3k game

2. when building a list I look at what areas I want compete in and how are my choices going to help me acheive the victory goals (or deny my opponent theirs) most lists have a few ways they can be built to this end.

War Engines tend to project a lot more power from a smaller footprint, they also tend to be more durable than AV and Inf

Scout sized titans (ie Warhounds and Revenants) have good durability coupled with reasonable speed and quite a good level of lethality for their points cost

Battle Titans (Reavers, Warlords, Gargants etc) generally need to be included for a specific purpose in most lists they project a lot of power on asmaller footprint but can only target one enemy formation each activation. They are expensive so are invariably going to be your BTS but they are also genaerally durable too so being your BTS isnt a bad idea.

Where battle titans are so limiting is that they limit the rest of you war engine / air support 1/3 so you need to look at a potential comprimise in how to overcome this.

Having a Big central element is ok but you still need to look at target/threat saturation. If you your opponents MW and TK weapons just have one target and that will net them a Victory Goal you have given up on the durability advantage that you were aiming for by including them in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic - Use of Titans
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:07 am 
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I don't have wisdom to share, but I'm interested in the discussion.

My Codex Astartes currently has no titans or navy. I tried out some predators and was impressed with their AT punch, which nothing else in my list has.

I have just bought some more epic on Facebook to net me a Reaver and a Warlord, and I'm interested in how they will fit in my list and maybe give me something that can hold center.

Air assaults, and the threat of them, seem to be great at taking positions, but woeful at holding them - which seems to fit the Space Marine "tip of the spear" battle philosophy.

Plus I really struggle to have a BTS that a) isn't my supreme commander and b) can survive turn two.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic - Use of Titans
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:08 am 
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I've run Steel Legion for a while. This has meant I have a 1/3 Titan & Navy cap which has probably affected my view on titans.

Anyway, I've found the big Titans to generally be not worth their points, mainly because they are often slow and limit the activation count of an army otherwise.
They can get out activated, out manouevred and then shot / assaulted into oblivion.

Little titans, like Warhounds however, are amazing. Fast, durable and packing solid firepower, they are worth every point and allow your activation count to still be around that higher number.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic - Use of Titans
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:20 am 
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I agree with your comments about the Mega-Gargant, Chris. The boost in firepower is impressive and the model's really nice but the cost and lack of reinforced armour are huge limitations.

That said, I think there is a place for the Battle Titan outside of an all-Titans list. Sure it'll almost certainly be your BTS (whether you're required to have your Warlord inside or not), but Great Gargants and Warlord Titans are pretty tough, if your opponent hasn't invested heavily in TK weapons or bulk Terminators you're pretty safe. And if they have, that's a match-up issue not a problem with the big guys.

The trick, I think is objective placement. If you've got a big Titan you want the objectives as close together ar possible. With your big guy in position in the end game you can deny BTS, deny They Shall Not Pass, Control the two forward objectives or Contest the two defensive objectives, and threaten the Blitz. That's a lot of leverage from a single formation.

The more Epic I see, the more I think that the real art is placing objectives to suit your army and the battlefield (just as those 6 obstacles take on huge importance in X-Wing).

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 Post subject: Re: Epic - Use of Titans
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:33 pm 
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I don't have much wisdom, but I have experience from being on the receiving end!

I think Matt-Shadowlord really showed me what a single expensive unit can do when I gave him a practice match for a previous Cancon. While it wasn't a Titan, the same thing applied. Get extra attacks from your Titan by getting him in firefight range of the enemy. You then send other units in and he gets to help out each time.

Personally with Orks, I still struggle at 3k points to take a gargant as I don't want to give up a Landa. I've been trying to experiment with a Big Stompa Mob with two Supa Stompas. Those things don't steal points from your Landas!!

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 Post subject: Re: Epic - Use of Titans
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:09 am 
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With the added benefit that two Supa-Stompas (and six Stompas) are slightly more resilient and cost slightly more than a Great Gargant, but have twice the firepower. Good deal! :)

What do you use for a Supa-Stompa model?


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 Post subject: Re: Epic - Use of Titans
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:37 am 
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Quote:
I think Matt-Shadowlord really showed me what a single expensive unit can do when I gave him a practice match for a previous Cancon. While it wasn't a Titan, the same thing applied. Get extra attacks from your Titan by getting him in firefight range of the enemy. You then send other units in and he gets to help out each time.
With good planning, it is entirely possible to get an initial assault with your titan, and then a couple of firefights to boot that same turn. Matt's done this to me as well, except most prominently with the 0pt Avatar. What better bang for buck than three combats in one turn for free.

Keeping your objectives tightly placed as well can keep big slow titans in the game. If the opponent is going for Blitz, they will have to deal with it at some point or miss out altogether.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic - Use of Titans
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:49 am 
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I find just wiping out the enemy works pretty well for me :wink: 4 reavers packed with nothing but 2+ Macro weapons


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 Post subject: Re: Epic - Use of Titans
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:55 am 
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Quote:
I find just wiping out the enemy works pretty well for me :wink: 4 reavers packed with nothing but 2+ Macro weapons
If this were a Jeopardy answer, I'd buzz in with "Why does everybody hate Olly?" :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Epic - Use of Titans
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:54 am 
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And then only fights tau with lots of flying titan killers


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 Post subject: Epic - Use of Titans
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:27 pm 
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Quote:
With the added benefit that two Supa-Stompas (and six Stompas) are slightly more resilient and cost slightly more than a Great Gargant, but have twice the firepower. Good deal! :)

What do you use for a Supa-Stompa model?
Sometimes I use a potbelly Gargant thing. Other times a Stompa with a Weirdboy glued to his head. It's Orks! You could even use some sort of orkeasaurus as long as you aren't running a feral list.

Joel

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 Post subject: Epic - Use of Titans
PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 9:05 am 
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Quote:
Quote:
I think Matt-Shadowlord really showed me what a single expensive unit can do when I gave him a practice match for a previous Cancon. While it wasn't a Titan, the same thing applied. Get extra attacks from your Titan by getting him in firefight range of the enemy. You then send other units in and he gets to help out each time.
With good planning, it is entirely possible to get an initial assault with your titan, and then a couple of firefights to boot that same turn. Matt's done this to me as well, except most prominently with the 0pt Avatar. What better bang for buck than three combats in one turn for free.

Keeping your objectives tightly placed as well can keep big slow titans in the game. If the opponent is going for Blitz, they will have to deal with it at some point or miss out altogether.
To be fair, that was the 0pt biel tan Avatar but it was also upgraded with the court of the young king for an additional 0pts.

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