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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:47 pm 
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The way I have played it is that if at any point during the move you were in range and the suppression allowed an AA gun a shot, you get shot.

Hopefully one of our local experts will swoop in and give you a more definitive answer, though.

Colm


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:28 pm 
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...

I've been brushing up on the rules and realising all the things I've been playing horribly wrong in my games so far. Rallying Ork formations seems a lot less daunting when you get +1 to the roll if there's 5 or more units left (+2 if there's 10)! I also had no idea how hit allocation actually worked, which changes things drastically.
Don't forget it's "more than" so it's +1 for 6 or more and +2 for 11 or more!
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Now that I know enough to start properly building lists, I can't seem to find space for even a single Great Gargant at 3000 pts. :(
Time for you to check out the Albert Orkstein lists!

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:57 pm 
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One thing I noticed in the rules that was a bit confusing, with regard to AA fire: You resolve the attack at the end of the aircraft's approach move or at the edge of the table when it disengages, as long as it passed close enough to the AA unit during the move.

My question (couldn't find an FAQ for it): When do you determine suppression for AA fire? Is it at the time when the aircraft first comes within range, or when it's at the end of its move, or at some point in between?

If it's when the aircraft comes within range (which seems like a safe assumption, given that you also need to check range for other units in the formation to determine who can fire and therefore take the suppression), a follow-up question: If the AA was suppressed according to its position relative to the aircraft during the approach, but is still in range and now in a position that it is not suppressed when the aircraft disengages, can it fire? (Essentially, does being suppressed count as having made an attack? Can you choose not to make an attack in which you would be suppressed in order to make an attack later which would not be suppressed?)

Can you "wait" to check range on your unit's AA attack at a different point during the aircraft's move so that other units will be in range and take the suppression, or do you have to check as soon as the aircraft enters AA range?
Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding the question, but I'll try my best to answer. Keep in mind I haven't had the chance to play for awhile.

You determine suppression based on the aircraft's flight path. So if AA unit A and B are in a formation of tanks and there are a couple blast markers causing suppression, you'd watch where the Aircraft approaches to see if either AA unit can shoot at it at any point. Say for example that based on this A is suppressed at all times but B is not suppressed at some point so B gets to fire during the approach move. When the aircraft leaves the board, if at any point A is not suppressed relative to where the aircraft is currently at on it's flight path then A gets to fire. Please note that A and B can only ever fire once at any single aircraft formation but can fire at every single formation that comes within range that turn (providing they aren't suppressed and the formation isn't marching that turn and isn't broken.) Also keep in mind that no matter how many intercepts or flak attacks occur on a unit, they only ever receive 1 BM from being shot at per turn. They can still get more for taking wounds and for flying off the board on a side or enemy half of the table.

All of this is pretty much outlined in 4.2.4.

Regards,

Joel

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:25 pm 
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Time for you to check out the Albert Orkstein lists!
Heh. I started out with an Orkstein list, but the restrictions are brutal - the focus on sloooow units and point-sink Gargants means you can easily get out-activated and out-maneuvered. It does have its own advantages but I'm looking for something a bit faster to deal with all the speedy opponents out there.

Also, I really don't understand how the Kustom Upgrades are supposed to work - I can't barely make any sense of the Oddboy rules as written, and I can barely guess at the intent. Maybe you can help?

On Gargants, I can't see why you would take almost any of the Kustom Upgrades, even though they're free. They replace an arm or belly gun - why would you replace a BP3 MW twin soopagun with a BP3+D3 mega-lobba (that you can never fire since it's not MW, and is therefore different to the Gargant's other barrage weapons)? Why replace a BP3 MW with four AP5/AT6 guns with significantly shorter range? Is it really worth giving up a third of your firepower for D3+3 extra power fields? The only ones that seem to be reasonable choices are the supa-zzap (to get a second 3+TK(D3) shot alongside the lifta-droppa on a dedicated titan-killing Gargant) and the snappa.

Then you see the bit where "Oddboyz can also take Kustom Upgrades", with no explanation of how that's supposed to work. The upgrades pretty clearly say that they replace a Gargant arm or belly weapon, which Oddboyz don't have. Does it replace the Oddboy's soopagun/zzap gun? (Why would it? It's not a Gargant arm or belly weapon.) You might guess that perhaps they could upgrade a Gargant in the same army, but the mega-choppa explicitly tells you how it works when applied to an Oddboy... and none of the other upgrades do. That's without even getting into weird things like an Oddboy can technically take a Transporta upgrade, which presumably does nothing at all since he's not a Gargant.

Also, Mega Gargants don't have reinforced armour and die incredibly fast (and they can't take upgrades), so they seem like a huge waste of points. Also also, it has a formation entry for Drop Roks, but no profile for them.

Basically, the list doesn't really seem finished or fully thought out. (Or perhaps is just very poorly explained for a new player like me, but I'm reading the rules pretty carefully - the rules just aren't all there!) The Ghaz list is very clear, very flexible, and seems pretty well balanced (relentless Landa-assaults notwithstanding) - it just doesn't encourage players to take Gargants.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:49 pm 
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Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding the question, but I'll try my best to answer. Keep in mind I haven't had the chance to play for awhile.
Thanks! Let me just check that I've got it with a quick and simple scenario:

A formation of two Flakwagons (and no other units) has a single blast marker. An enemy Thunderbolt is making a ground attack and elects to fly directly over the Flakwagons to attack a formation somewhere behind them.

When the Thunderbolt is heading towards the Flakwagons, the rear Flakwagon (B) is suppressed. The front Flakwagon (A) can fire, so its attack will be made at the end of the Thunderbolt's approach. However, once the Thuderbolt passes over the Flakwagons, Flakwagon A is now suppressed because it's further from the target, and Flakwagon B can therefore fire. At the end of the Thunderbolt's approach, both Flakwagons shoot at it.

Is that right?

Also, I'm not sure about what you mean by "no matter how many intercepts or flak attacks occur on a unit, they only ever receive 1 BM from being shot at per turn." Section 1.3 says "a formation receives a blast marker every time it is shot at by an enemy formation". Have I missed a rule that says flak attacks are an exception to this?

(In fact, this would seem to suggest that if an AA unit made an attack on an aircraft during the approach it would gain a blast, and if another unit in the same formation made an attack on the same aircraft as it was disengaging it would gain a second blast - one for "every time it is shot at", since the shots come at separate points in the turn. No?)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:28 pm 
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Each formation can only fire AA on each aircraft formation once per turn, so only one of your flakk wagons gets a shot.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:36 pm 
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Each formation can only fire AA on each aircraft formation once per turn, so only one of your flakk wagons gets a shot.
The FAQ has the following:
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Q: An aircraft makes its approach move and suffers flak attacks from one unit in a formation. As it makes its disengagement move it comes into range of an other unit from the same formation, may this unit flak attack the aircraft?

A: Yes, each unit may only shoot at an aircraft once per turn.
The rules consistently talk about flak attacks being made on a per-unit (not per-formation) basis - that's where a lot of my confusion is coming from. If it were once per formation per turn, everything would be much simpler!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:45 pm 
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Also, I'm not sure about what you mean by "no matter how many intercepts or flak attacks occur on a unit, they only ever receive 1 BM from being shot at per turn." Section 1.3 says "a formation receives a blast marker every time it is shot at by an enemy formation". Have I missed a rule that says flak attacks are an exception to this?
Ah, there is such a rule! Section 4.2.7 covers this exception. One blast for fire in the approach, one in the disengage, one per point of damage and one for leaving by the wrong table edge. Good to know - thanks Joel, I'd totally missed that one. :)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:15 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
Each formation can only fire AA on each aircraft formation once per turn, so only one of your flakk wagons gets a shot.
The FAQ has the following:
Quote:
Q: An aircraft makes its approach move and suffers flak attacks from one unit in a formation. As it makes its disengagement move it comes into range of an other unit from the same formation, may this unit flak attack the aircraft?

A: Yes, each unit may only shoot at an aircraft once per turn.
The rules consistently talk about flak attacks being made on a per-unit (not per-formation) basis - that's where a lot of my confusion is coming from. If it were once per formation per turn, everything would be much simpler!
Ah, I should have checked the rules before posting! Right you are. Now I don't know, maybe both wagons could fire...


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:37 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding the question, but I'll try my best to answer. Keep in mind I haven't had the chance to play for awhile.
Thanks! Let me just check that I've got it with a quick and simple scenario:

A formation of two Flakwagons (and no other units) has a single blast marker. An enemy Thunderbolt is making a ground attack and elects to fly directly over the Flakwagons to attack a formation somewhere behind them.

When the Thunderbolt is heading towards the Flakwagons, the rear Flakwagon (B) is suppressed. The front Flakwagon (A) can fire, so its attack will be made at the end of the Thunderbolt's approach. However, once the Thuderbolt passes over the Flakwagons, Flakwagon A is now suppressed because it's further from the target, and Flakwagon B can therefore fire. At the end of the Thunderbolt's approach, both Flakwagons shoot at it.

Is that right?
Technically, Flakwagon A attacks the flyer the second it is in range and Flakwagon A isn't suppressed. B then does the same when it is in range and not suppressed. The Thunderbolt should have been smarter with it's flightpath!
Quote:
Also, I'm not sure about what you mean by "no matter how many intercepts or flak attacks occur on a unit, they only ever receive 1 BM from being shot at per turn." Section 1.3 says "a formation receives a blast marker every time it is shot at by an enemy formation". Have I missed a rule that says flak attacks are an exception to this?

(In fact, this would seem to suggest that if an AA unit made an attack on an aircraft during the approach it would gain a blast, and if another unit in the same formation made an attack on the same aircraft as it was disengaging it would gain a second blast - one for "every time it is shot at", since the shots come at separate points in the turn. No?)
Read this post to see what I mean about only 1 BM for coming under fire. http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/ ... =4&t=27579

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:48 am 
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Technically, Flakwagon A attacks the flyer the second it is in range and Flakwagon A isn't suppressed. B then does the same when it is in range and not suppressed. The Thunderbolt should have been smarter with it's flightpath!
Heh, yes. Stoopid 'oomies. :P

Though you still only actually roll dice once the aircraft has finished its approach move, so the attacks are made at the "same time" from a player perspective. It makes enough sense to me that the changing battlefield conditions will allow both AA guns to fire, though I think it's a bit weird. I played a game this evening with plenty of aircraft and AA, and the interaction was very interesting and fun to evaluate from a tactical perspective, so I'm looking forward to more of that. Plus I got my first ever win in Epic. :)
Quote:
Read this post to see what I mean about only 1 BM for coming under fire. http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/ ... =4&t=27579
Yeah, the 1BM thing makes sense to me now. All the AA during approach or disengagement is rolled at the same time (at the end of the move) so it's basically treated like a single attack for BMs.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:19 am 
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Flying rules hurt the head a bit.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:29 am 
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If 2 flakwagonz have a BM on them then 1 would have to be suppressed, no matter what flight path the planes took.

Also, planes only take 1 BM on an approach (CAP or ground based AA) or departure, no matter how many formations attack them. They still gain BM's normally if intercepted at a later point in the turn.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:23 pm 
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If 2 flakwagonz have a BM on them then 1 would have to be suppressed, no matter what flight path the planes took.
Well, that makes more sense to me as a way to play the game, though I'm still not sure how the rules we have can lead to that conclusion. :P

And if the unit also had a Gunwagon, and at some point in the flight path while within range that Gunwagon was furthest from the aircraft, both Flaks could fire?
Quote:
Also, planes only take 1 BM on an approach (CAP or ground based AA) or departure, no matter how many formations attack them. They still gain BM's normally if intercepted at a later point in the turn.
I just want to check, since I've seen this "only 1 BM" thing stated a few different ways now without any qualifying statements: During the approach or disengagement, does the aircraft formation take 1 BM from coming under fire (from any number of sources) and additional BMs from casualties inflicted, or is it just 1 BM regardless of the number of planes that die?

Thanks :)


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:42 pm 
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If 2 flakwagonz have a BM on them then 1 would have to be suppressed, no matter what flight path the planes took.

Also, planes only take 1 BM on an approach (CAP or ground based AA) or departure, no matter how many formations attack them. They still gain BM's normally if intercepted at a later point in the turn.
What if it's a unit of 2 flakwagonz and 2 gunwagons with 1 BM on them. Doesn't the possibility exist depending on the flight path of the aircraft and positioning of the flakwagons that both flakwagons would have a chance to shoot?

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