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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:46 pm 
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I just want to check, since I've seen this "only 1 BM" thing stated a few different ways now without any qualifying statements: During the approach or disengagement, does the aircraft formation take 1 BM from coming under fire (from any number of sources) and additional BMs from casualties inflicted,
Yup, this.
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- Any aircraft formation that suffers any attacks (from ground flak or being intercepted) receives one Blast marker for "coming under fire". The formation can only receive one Blast marker during the approach move and another Blast marker during the disengagement move, no matter how many different units from however many different formations attack it.
- The aircraft receives one Blast marker for each aircraft unit that is shot down or point of damage that is suffered if it is a war engine.
- The aircraft receives an extra Blast marker if it exits from any table edge other than its own table edge, to represent the possibility of it being attacked while flying back over enemy territory.
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What if it's a unit of 2 flakwagonz and 2 gunwagons with 1 BM on them. Doesn't the possibility exist depending on the flight path of the aircraft and positioning of the flakwagons that both flakwagons would have a chance to shoot?
Yup.
When checking for suppression on ground based flak attacks, it's important to remember that all units in the formation that are within weapons range (say 45cm for the Gunwagonz big gun) are taken into account.
Quote:
Q:Can units with weapons that don’t have an AA value be supressed when making a flak attack?
A:Yes, and they only need to be within range as all ground units have a line of fire to flying aircraft.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:56 pm 
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Q:Can units with weapons that don’t have an AA value be supressed when making a flak attack?
A:Yes, and they only need to be within range as all ground units have a line of fire to flying aircraft.
this rule never made sense to me and always thought it was a terrible rule (suppression for AA should only count against units with actual AA attacks)...so if everyone counts for suppression why doesnt every stand (that isnt a specialized AA unit) then get a single 6+ shot for example...cause to say everyone in weapons range counts for suppression means everyone should be able to shoot at the aircraft...conversely, if an aircraft wouldnt consider the non-AA units a threat because they cant actually damage it, why should the suppression count for the non-AA units...

love to have this explained in a way that makes sense...otherwise its actually too easy to negate the suppression for AA units because most ground units have longer ranged weapons than many of the guns on the aircraft in the game...

i know its been argued the weapon ranges for aircraft should be kept short as otherwise they would be too powerful, so dont see why they should get further disadvantaged with a rule that makes it easier to keep the AA units active against aircraft (most aircraft need to get within 30cm to use their weapons effectively so just keep ur AA in the middle of the formation and no matter the angle u can negate suppression most of the time)...from experience i have found its not too hard to counter the suppression of AA and make it that much harder for the aircraft to be effective in the game...i think history would show that no matter how much AA you have in the area, aircraft can still get in and do damage (especially on the tactical battlefield, which is what EA is representing)...in reality its generally proven the best defence against aircraft is other aircraft and i think EA does that fairly well with the intercept rules...eg consider the tactical battlefields of WWII where once the Allies got air superiority no matter how much ground AA the Germans had the Allied aircraft dominated...but then again maybe aircraft are just too hard to balance in tabletop games...

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:38 pm 
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this rule never made sense to me and always thought it was a terrible rule (suppression for AA should only count against units with actual AA attacks)...so if everyone counts for suppression why doesnt every stand (that isnt a specialized AA unit) then get a single 6+ shot for example...cause to say everyone in weapons range counts for suppression means everyone should be able to shoot at the aircraft...conversely, if an aircraft wouldnt consider the non-AA units a threat because they cant actually damage it, why should the suppression count for the non-AA units...

love to have this explained in a way that makes sense...otherwise its actually too easy to negate the suppression for AA units because most ground units have longer ranged weapons than many of the guns on the aircraft in the game...
All true, but individual armies differ and the way they get to include AA in their lists vary, so I suppose they had to pick from one of three options:

1) Only AA weapons count towards the how many units in a formation are suppressed (which I think is what you're saying you'd prefer). This would however mean 1 Hydra in a formation with 10 Leman Russ would be useless when the formation has a single BM, and probably makes AA in mixed formations far too weak.

2) All units in the formation count towards the how many units in a formation are suppressed (which is the way the rules work). This is a pretty abstract way to do it, there's no real reason why a Hydra crew can manage to fire based on how many battle cannons can also see the target, but at least it's fairly consistent with the rest of the suppression rules.
Quite a few formations do suffer from the suppression rules (eg a formation with 3 Heavy AA Guns and 3 Trojans has its AA range drop from 60cm to 30cm if/when the heavy-bolter armed trojans have to count towards suppression).

3) AA Weapons can't be suppressed unless the formation is broken. This would allow the one Hydra in the formation to keep firing regardless of how many BM the formation takes, until broken. IMHO that makes as much sense as 2, but is probably over-generous to AA.

So with those 3 options for the rules, if 1 is too harsh and 3 is too kind, number 2 was probably the right choice.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:39 am 
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If 2 flakwagonz have a BM on them then 1 would have to be suppressed, no matter what flight path the planes took.
Okay, just to clarfiy this with a thought experiment, consider a formation of two flakwagons only, with a single BM. A Thunderhawk flies directly over this formation on his way to the other side of the battlefield to do his space marine things.

TH - - FW1 - FW2 - - -
As the Thunderhawk flies towards the flakwagons, the flakwagon at the back will be suppressed, so the first flakwagon has a chance to fire.

- - - FW1 - FW2 - - TH
Now the Thunderhawk has flown over the formation, and the BM will now apply to the other flakwagon and the second flakwagon is now capable of firing.

Does this mean that each flakwagon will get to shoot, as each flakwagon at different times counts as being unsuppressed?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:51 am 
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this rule never made sense to me and always thought it was a terrible rule (suppression for AA should only count against units with actual AA attacks)...so if everyone counts for suppression why doesnt every stand (that isnt a specialized AA unit) then get a single 6+ shot for example...cause to say everyone in weapons range counts for suppression means everyone should be able to shoot at the aircraft...conversely, if an aircraft wouldnt consider the non-AA units a threat because they cant actually damage it, why should the suppression count for the non-AA units...

love to have this explained in a way that makes sense...otherwise its actually too easy to negate the suppression for AA units because most ground units have longer ranged weapons than many of the guns on the aircraft in the game...
All true, but individual armies differ and the way they get to include AA in their lists vary, so I suppose they had to pick from one of three options:

1) Only AA weapons count towards the how many units in a formation are suppressed (which I think is what you're saying you'd prefer). This would however mean 1 Hydra in a formation with 10 Leman Russ would be useless when the formation has a single BM, and probably makes AA in mixed formations far too weak.

2) All units in the formation count towards the how many units in a formation are suppressed (which is the way the rules work). This is a pretty abstract way to do it, there's no real reason why a Hydra crew can manage to fire based on how many battle cannons can also see the target, but at least it's fairly consistent with the rest of the suppression rules.
Quite a few formations do suffer from the suppression rules (eg a formation with 3 Heavy AA Guns and 3 Trojans has its AA range drop from 60cm to 30cm if/when the heavy-bolter armed trojans have to count towards suppression).

3) AA Weapons can't be suppressed unless the formation is broken. This would allow the one Hydra in the formation to keep firing regardless of how many BM the formation takes, until broken. IMHO that makes as much sense as 2, but is probably over-generous to AA.

So with those 3 options for the rules, if 1 is too harsh and 3 is too kind, number 2 was probably the right choice.
thanks Matt, appreciate the insight :)

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