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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:49 am 
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After poking around Dark Realm Miniatures for a while yesterday (prompted by Steve's painting efforts :P ), I've started theorybashing some lists and I'm wondering what things should be taken into account when building an army for this game. So some general things would be:
[]What is the standard points size of the game? Tournament size?
[]How much AP vs AT?
[]Is there any requisite of x% in Core/Special?
[]Are transports as prevalent in Epic as they are in 40k?
[]Is there any class that is an auto-include due to how powerful/important it is (ie Titans/Flyers/Super Heavies)?
[]Is the game relatively balanced army vs amy?

The army I'm considering is the Lost and the Damned mainly so I can take imperial style artilery, planes and bulk infantry with demons summoned straight into the thick of things. :D

Thanks,
Nick

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:17 am 
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i would auto include something with AA, or a couple of things...

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:22 am 
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Here are some brief answers before Onyx comes on and gives you a wise essay :D

[]What is the standard points size of the game? Tournament size?

3000

[]How much AP vs AT?

Many units have both AP and AT values, but the key thing to keep in mind is ALL units can attack vehicles (and act as AT) in assaults. That means you don't have to go out of your way to make sure you have an exact ratio of AP to AT to have a balanced army.

[]Is there any requisite of x% in Core/Special?

Each codex has its own requirements of Core to Support formations, and many also have a Navy and Titan allowance. It's usually something like '2 support formations per 1 core'.

[]Are transports as prevalent in Epic as they are in 40k?

Yes, they are cheap and Epic is a game of maneuvering for objectives (even more than 40k). There are plenty of foot and mixed armies though.

[]Is there any class that is an auto-include due to how powerful/important it is (ie Titans/Flyers/Super Heavies)?

Depends on the army, all want some sort of anti-air and the majority of Imperial Armies benefit from the inclusion of a Warhound Titan (fast, resilient, and everything scores).

[]Is the game relatively balanced army vs amy?

Yes. It's not perfect and there is a bit of variance between them, but it does seem like player-skill is more important. Someone like you could probably make a competitive army out of virtually any codex.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:33 am 
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Awesome, thanks for the responses guys. :D
Quote:
[]Is there any class that is an auto-include due to how powerful/important it is (ie Titans/Flyers/Super Heavies)?Depends on the army, all want some sort of anti-air and the majority of Imperial Armies benefit from the inclusion of a Warhound Titan (fast, resilient, and everything scores).
Quote:
i would auto include something with AA, or a couple of things...
From this, can I assume that flyers are pretty dangerous and need to have a certain amount of points reserved to killing them. Or, on the flipside, is bulking out on flyers a bad move? This is mainly because the helicopter DRM models look awesome and it sounds like it might be half playable. :D

I'll chuck up my own expertlynoobly theorybashed list up soon at roughly 3kpt for critiquedismemberment. :oops:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:40 am 
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I'd suggest just copy and pasting one of the recommended army lists for your first couple of games, just to get the feel for it.

Air units can ONLY be hit by AA weapons (which includes other fighters, interceptors and bombers), so if you don't have any the opponent can raid you with impunity. The standard army has one or two thunderbolt formations, and a couple of ground based AA (hunters or hydras).

Aircraft are excellent at laying down blast markers and killing units in retreating broken formations just by shooting at them. On the other hand, a single Hydra can fire at every enemy flier that comes into its range, so you soon see why most armies have a couple of fliers and almost all have some sort of AA.

There are also some armies that REALLY go to town with aircraft, like marines in thunderhawks and orcs with massed fighta bombas. You just don't want to leave home without some way to respond.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:51 am 
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Quote:
Air units can ONLY be hit by AA weapons (which includes other fighters, interceptors and bombers), so if you don't have any the opponent can raid you with impunity. The standard army has one or two thunderbolt formations, and a couple of ground based AA (hunters or hydras).Aircraft are excellent at laying down blast markers and killing units in retreating broken formations just by shooting at them. On the other hand, a single Hydra can fire at every enemy flier that comes into its range, so you soon see why most armies have a couple of fliers and almost all have some sort of AA.
Hmmm, I see what you mean... I'm also hearing that if you can annihilate their AA platforms from afar, then a portion of your army will be completely immune from counter attack for the game :D

Once this uni stuff is over, I'm thinking a few practice games may be in order if someone doesn't mind explaining things :D

Edit: @Matt: Where are these recommended armylists you speak of? I'm flicking through the Epic armylist book that I found from the last campaign and can't see anything...


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:26 pm 
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Just come up with a list you like then play a few games with it and you should know what your missing but yeah AA and some nice transports are good too :)


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:43 pm 
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Quote:
I'm also hearing that if you can annihilate their AA platforms from afar, then a portion of your army will be completely immune from counter attack for the game :D
Yes, you are correct, you can take out your enemy's AA and have free run with aircraft, but the biggest problem with aircraft is they can't claim objectives (mostly). Essentially, winning in Epic is about controlling objectives and board presence. The more you have up in the air, the less you have controlling objectives. But gunning down your opponent doesn't hurt!

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:53 am 
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Looks like most of the points have already been covered... :D

Make sure you check the useful Epic Armageddon links link in my sig. It is packed full of helpful stuff for prospective Epic players.

Tactical Command is definitely the best place on the Net for all things Epic Armageddon. On-going list development, updated FAQ's (of which I'm part of the team), new model creation (mostly using CAD and then produced in metal) etc. They're generally a very helpful buch so don't be afraid to ask questions there. Each of the races/armies has it's own section with more details aswell.

Do you have a particular army in mind Brookesy?
So far, you're definitely in the mix for the free 50GBP worth of minis 8) .

THIS army building tool is lots of fun (but bear in mind there are a few errors in some of the details). This site does not provide stats. It is just an army list builder.

Cheers mate,
Steve.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:46 pm 
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Quote:
Do you have a particular army in mind Brookesy?
I'm looking to max out on planes/helicopters/basically anything that flies. From what I've read, I can get a ridiculous amount of this by using Steel Legion (in a 3kpt game, 1000pts of Thunderbolts+Marauder Bombers then with all Core units supported by Vultures). Alternatively I'm considering the Lost and the Damned so not only can I fly, but I can teleport Daemons into the thick of things as well.

Thanks for the help and the links Steve, I daresay I'll be trawling for a fair while. :D


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:14 pm 
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I see they have squats on the army builder now


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:58 am 
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Here's what I'm thinking so far (in all of my wisdom and experience) :lol:

Steel Legion List, 3kpts

Core Formations
[]Mech Infantry
-Mtd in Chimeras
-3 Leman Russ
-Hydra Flak

[]Mech Infantry
-Mtd in Chimeras
-3 Leman Russ
-Hydra Flak

[]Super Tank Company
-3 Baneblades

Support Formations
[]3 Thunderbolt Fighter Formations (6 Fighters)
[]Vulture Formation (4 Vultures)
[]Super Tank Platoon (1 Baneblade)
[]Artillery Platoon (3Manticores)

Thoughts?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:13 am 
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Id say too much up in the air.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:20 am 
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Quote:
Id say too much up in the air.
But air stuff looks so cool! :D

I imagine it would lack scoring options although I figured having all of the infantry hiding in tanks might add a bit of durability for that last minute dash for the objectives.

Edit: What is the usual amount of scoring options per list anyway?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:08 am 
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You'll definitely be needing a Supreme Commnader (Regimental HQ) to get the army to do what you want them to do (gives you a re-roll when trying to activate a formation once per turn).

The problem with the Mech Infantry companies (which I do like a lot) is that if one Chimera is taken out, the whole formation is slowed down a lot. The 3 Leman Russ will give the formation some great armour up front but will slow down the Company a bit aswell.

I LOVE Vultures! They are fast and deadly to light armour formations (and fantastic for stripping Void Shields off titans). Unfortunately, most of your opponents know this aswell and they will have giant targets painted on them. They are Scouts and Skimmers so they can hide quite well and spread out to minimise casualties. Vultures can form an effective scout screen but they're expensive in this role.

3 Manticores is a very good choice.

Baneblades are a jack of all trades type of tank. Unfortunately, this means they are a master of none. They will be great against infantry hordes (like Tyranids for example) but less effective against well armoured targets (anything with Reinforced Armour for example). Shadowswords have generally been prefered in recent times (especially for the Super Heavy Platoon - there is nothing more annoying than a single Shadowsword with a Commisar in it! ).

3 Thunderbolt formations is interesting. You can put them on Combat Air Patrol to help with enemy air attacks (only one formation can actually perform a CAP intercept at a time). They can be used as Matt described to maul broken enemy formations (Manticores will actually be much better at this though). They will need to be nursed carfully as they only have a 6+ armour save. 450pts spent on formations that cannot claim or contest objectives is aslo something to consider.

9 activations in a Steel Legion army is good (most will probably have 8 activations).

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