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 Post subject: Re: Should Imperial Armour be allowed at tournaments?
 Post Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:14 pm 
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Warp rift and might of titan will sort out an achilles quick smart

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 Post subject: Should Imperial Armour be allowed at tournaments?
 Post Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:29 pm 
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Its good alone, but only truly a thing of glory when tripled and the opponent has no choice but to deal with them. Put 5 man scoring units inside and call it a day against the vast majority of armies.


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 Post subject: Re: Should Imperial Armour be allowed at tournaments?
 Post Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:52 am 
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Massaen wrote:
Dark eldar are basically stuffed with all the AT weapons using lance or melta


It's not that bad if you bothered to take wyches with haywire grenades or scourges with haywire blasters, but yeah immune to everything else. Doesn't it also have a thunderfire cannon? cause that's what is really scary about it for eldar.

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 Post subject: Should Imperial Armour be allowed at tournaments?
 Post Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:47 am 
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roleplayer09 wrote:
Warp rift and might of titan will sort out an achilles quick smart


You have to get there first when facing 3 of them

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 Post subject: Re: Should Imperial Armour be allowed at tournaments?
 Post Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:26 am 
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How about a Space Marine Siege Vanguard Assualt list.

Four heavy support Achilles, 4 scout squads, a Space marine Captain, a Caestus Assualt Ram. 1975 points. The look on your opponent's face priceless :twisted:

Unfortunately you can't take Lucius pattern pods and you have to hold your Siege objective or you can only get a draw or worse :(

Still a list like this might give a Tau Broadside army some sport :)


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 Post subject: Re: Should Imperial Armour be allowed at tournaments?
 Post Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:44 pm 
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Should Imperial Armour be allowed at tournaments?

Only if TO's allow them, then I don't care.

HOWEVER, I do not think anyone using IA units should be eligible for ATC selection if the majority of their wins are with IA units.

Doing well with a list that you won't be able to use in the ATC but getting selected seems silly to me.

Not sure about ultimates though.

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 Post subject: Re: Should Imperial Armour be allowed at tournaments?
 Post Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:22 pm 
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Elysium wrote:
Should Imperial Armour be allowed at tournaments?

Only if TO's allow them, then I don't care.

HOWEVER, I do not think anyone using IA units should be eligible for ATC selection if the majority of their wins are with IA units.

Doing well with a list that you won't be able to use in the ATC but getting selected seems silly to me.

Not sure about ultimates though.


So does that mean we should be selecting the WA team on the basis of who is the best general with a particular codex?

If the top two players in WA qualify on the basis they both used Imperial Guard during the year, then only one can be on the ATC team. This is because only one player can use the army they qualified with because you can only have one army of each codex.

Ironically of all the players who have used IA at tournaments, Matt is probably the most successful.

Only at the previous incarnation of GPDA where super heavies were allowed did IA significantly change the balance. Of course that was when the 40K event at GPDA was a great event in my opinion.

Brendon's Achilles Armagedon worst case scenario is only an issue because it breaks the melta/lance meta. Shock horror you may have to break out the Lascannons etc again.


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 Post subject: Re: Should Imperial Armour be allowed at tournaments?
 Post Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:58 pm 
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Quote:
Brendon's Achilles Armagedon worst case scenario is only an issue because it breaks the melta/lance meta. Shock horror you may have to break out the Lascannons etc again.


FYI, it's 72 ballistic skill 3 lascannons to kill 1 Achilles, or 216 to kill all three. Fortunately since they are twin linked and carry 3 each you only need 54 Vendettas to get the job done. Double that if they are in cover/smoke. IA Achilles FTW!!! :D



Since it came up, the ATC is seperate from this discussion because it is absolutely clear that it does not allow Imperial Armour units. Neither does the Australian Masters, and nor have the recent Ultimates tournaments.

The primary gateway to qualifying for the ATC team will be the Westgamer Tournament League Generals Ladder. We are going to want the best generals with their best armies, but it would be unrealistic to expect that the top 8 on the league will all be available to travel over and will all play a different book. I expect there will be some horse-trading and flexibility needed to sort out who takes what, but that's the basic goal.

The ideal would be everyone who goes has at least hit the podium with the standard 40k codex version of their preferred army. They can't take a IA army so for instance my score with an army with IA units in it wouldn't be enough to allow me to claim the IG army and I'd need to also score high with a version of the army I can actually take.

That wouldn't discriminate against people who like IA units or tournaments that allow them, but would mean the player has to succeed with an army they can actually use to be able to claim it for the ATC.


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 Post subject: Re: Should Imperial Armour be allowed at tournaments?
 Post Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:00 pm 
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Thorhorsemen wrote:
Elysium wrote:
Should Imperial Armour be allowed at tournaments?

Only if TO's allow them, then I don't care.

HOWEVER, I do not think anyone using IA units should be eligible for ATC selection if the majority of their wins are with IA units.

Doing well with a list that you won't be able to use in the ATC but getting selected seems silly to me.

Not sure about ultimates though.


So does that mean we should be selecting the WA team on the basis of who is the best general with a particular codex?

If the top two players in WA qualify on the basis they both used Imperial Guard during the year, then only one can be on the ATC team. This is because only one player can use the army they qualified with because you can only have one army of each codex.

Ironically of all the players who have used IA at tournaments, Matt is probably the most successful.



I thought that was the aim of the ATC?
And I don't see how that related to my post?

I was pointing out that people who win tournaments using IA units should have points for that event excluded as they are using a non standard 40k unit. Although I don't see this being a problem as even at strike force I only noticed about 4 armies that had IA units, And I don't think any of them made it to top 3 overall/generalship.

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 Post subject: Should Imperial Armour be allowed at tournaments?
 Post Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:15 pm 
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I think people who use net lists should be dis qualified too but doesn't mean it's gonna happen...

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 Post subject: Re: Should Imperial Armour be allowed at tournaments?
 Post Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:10 pm 
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Elysium wrote:
Thorhorsemen wrote:
Elysium wrote:
Should Imperial Armour be allowed at tournaments?

Only if TO's allow them, then I don't care.

HOWEVER, I do not think anyone using IA units should be eligible for ATC selection if the majority of their wins are with IA units.

Doing well with a list that you won't be able to use in the ATC but getting selected seems silly to me.

Not sure about ultimates though.


So does that mean we should be selecting the WA team on the basis of who is the best general with a particular codex?

If the top two players in WA qualify on the basis they both used Imperial Guard during the year, then only one can be on the ATC team. This is because only one player can use the army they qualified with because you can only have one army of each codex.

Ironically of all the players who have used IA at tournaments, Matt is probably the most successful.



I thought that was the aim of the ATC?
And I don't see how that related to my post?

I was pointing out that people who win tournaments using IA units should have points for that event excluded as they are using a non standard 40k unit. Although I don't see this being a problem as even at strike force I only noticed about 4 armies that had IA units, And I don't think any of them made it to top 3 overall/generalship.


I suppose I should have been more detailed in my response.

Elysium wrote:
Doing well with a list that you won't be able to use in the ATC but getting selected seems silly to me.


I was responding to the above opinion you offered.

At the ATC each player on the team must use a different codex to the rest of the team. Therefore if the top 3 players on the Westgamer Generalship Table happen to be Grey Knight players and all 3 wish to go to the ATC, 2 of them would have to be excluded as they couldn't use the list that got them selected. Following the logic above.

It is possible that a good general could use Imperial Armour to derive some advantage through clever list building; however that is certainly no different to using any other codex.

I suggested that this argument is ironic, in that last year’s ATC was selected using the 2010 ultimates winners. The 1st placing general at ultimates that year was quite happy to use an Imperial Armour Manticore.

From my perspective as a TO and Forgeworld Fanboy, I would be opposed to any suggestion that gamers be restricted in what they use at events in WA because they run the risk of being excluded from participating at the ATC.

Sure it might take 54 vendettas to kill 3 Achilles on an average day but that isn’t always the case and not every day is average. Unless of course it is all about best list builder and generalship has no bearing on the game :wink:


Last edited by Thorhorsemen on Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Should Imperial Armour be allowed at tournaments?
 Post Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:27 pm 
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Quote:
At the ATC each player on the team must use a different codex to the rest of the team. Therefore if the top 3 players on the Westgamer Generalship Table happen to be Grey Knight players and all 3 wish to go to the ATC, 2 of them would have to be excluded as the, couldn't use the list that got them selected. Following the logic above.

That's pretty much correct, although fortunately a lot of our players use more than one army (especially the MEQ players where a lot is interchangable), so two of the top 3 might have a second army they have managed convincing results with as a back-up.
If they hadn't already they'd probably find this sufficient motivation to enter a tournament with a different army just to get that result.

Sticking with me as an example, I've had 1st places for Imperial Guard and Blood Angels (once with standard BA which could count, once with some Lucius pods which wouldn't), so if someone took IG I'd fall back to BA, assuming someone hadn't already taken that in which case I'd want to enter something pretty soon with something new! :D

That's just the nature of the ATC, they simply don't allow more than one player to use an army from each state. The qualifying players will have to be a little flexible, but I am sure we can work it all out amicably.

Quote:
It is possible that a good general could use Imperial Armour to derive some advantage through clever list building; however that is certainly no different to using any other codex.


True, and if they would let him come to the ATC with the clever Imperial Armour list then it wouldn't be a problem, but they won't. That's the difference from any other codex, and it applies to the vast majority of tournaments especially the top competitive ones.

Quote:
Sure it might take 54 vendettas to kill 3 Achilles on an average day but that isn’t always the case and not every day is average. Unless of course it is all about best list builder and generalship has no bearing on the game :wink:


I expect you're well aware I usually agree with you that tactics and plans are far more important in 40K than army lists, but yes it is actually my opinion that if someone brings three Landraider Achilles it is all about army lists, and generalship has little bearing on the game.
Some armies simply cannot deal with it, they don't have the tools regardless of player skill. Brendan is unlikely to disagree with this :D


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 Post subject: Re: Should Imperial Armour be allowed at tournaments?
 Post Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:08 pm 
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Attempting to enforce a restriction on players not qualifying for inclusion on the WA ATC team due to use of Imperial Armour elements in their armies at tournaments throughout the year is not only unrealistic - but it would be ultimately damaging to our tournament scene over here.

The last thing we need is for TOs to feel additional pressure to run their events a certain way due to it counting or not counting towards the ATC team selection. It's one of the things we've attempted to address as much as reasonably possible with the WestGamer Tournament League (within reason) - that is to still make it fairly inclusive of a wide range of event types. Getting into the business of trying to create an accepted standard for events in this particular area will just kill diversity, and that is really NOT what we want.

As long as the ATC runs using a different format to every tournament that we have over here, we cannot hope to achieve a world in a vaccum where the qualifying process exactly matches the end goal event. The best we can do is to pick out the best generals we have using consistent data available over a 12 month period, and then let the captain and the team itself sort out the finer details of who takes what along to give us the best chance of a strong result at the big event. Attempting to micromanage it further than that is a mistake.

We have a large proportion of hobby gamers as well as competition gamers in this state, and it is essential that the tournament scene continues to cater for both. In this case, that will likely mean IA being used at some events throughout the year, but not all. Probably not even most.

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 Post subject: Re: Should Imperial Armour be allowed at tournaments?
 Post Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:43 pm 
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To clarify, since I think what I've posted and what Luke's posted are in agreement, the results from all qualifying sized tournaments count towards the Westgamer League scores, and the Westgamer League scores are what we use for the ATC team selection.

That means a score from an event counts as long as it is 1500+ and 4+ rounds, whether the organisers allowed Forgeworld units or not. (Not including apocalypse and team events). The league is really good - it's not going to be possible to please everybody, but Luke and co have done a terrific job, and I've not really seen the inclusion of the odd IA army's result make much difference.

And what I am saying is that when it comes time to divvy out the codexes and decide who gets which army, one Marine player would not be able to muscle out another Marine player if the only time they got a better result was when using Lucious Drop Pods or similar IA gear. They would need to have acheived a result with an actually useable army to get first claim.

That's just to try make it as fair and level a playing field as possible for team members, since it doesn't matter what anyone says in this thread these competitive tournaments and inter-state events won't allow IA units unless GW put it in core rules.

Anyway that's probably enough about the ATC so I now return you to the original discussion about IA in general.
:D


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 Post subject: Re: Should Imperial Armour be allowed at tournaments?
 Post Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:07 am 
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Matt-ShadowLord wrote:
Put 5 man scoring units inside and call it a day against the vast majority of armies.


Matt, you're not thinking cheesy enough. Try 1 man scoring Wolf Guard units.

Matt-ShadowLord wrote:
Some armies simply cannot deal with it, they don't have the tools regardless of player skill. Brendan is unlikely to disagree with this


I agree completely. Taking 3 Achilles would require no skill to win with, just adherence to a simple list of DO's and DON'Ts (DON'T drive within 24" of scarab swarms, DO shoot them with S6 Thunderfire blasts). But this is not disimilar to a ton of net lists out there. The question of good generalship comes down to your ability to adapt to the events in a battle. When you don't have to adapt and can just follow a simple set of pre-planned instructions (shoot 3 rhinos, deny kill points/ stay off board, rush objectives last turn/ etc.) you are not actively participating in the game and are certainly not demonstrating any level of skill. If you want the measure of a great general, its not the guy who wins with the uber-redundant net list or unkillable deathstar units, its the guy who can compete at the top end with Eldar, Nids or a balanced Dark Eldar army* (not those silly Venom-spam netlists)

*I'm not talking about my own Dark Eldar here. I win on a mix of trickery and broken promises and bribe the TO's with the souls I've harvested.

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