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ScoJu's Age of Sigmar Social Contract - Page 2 - WestGamer
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:14 pm 
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I would also say that the level of social contract needed to allow a fair and enjoyable game between two people is directly proportional to the quality of the rule set.
This. Oh God, this.

When this thread popped up, I tried to remember if I needed to enforce any kind of social contract on any system I still played and for the life of me, none of them came to mind. The last time I needed an understanding between friends about how we were going to play anything was the last time I played 40k and since we dropped that, the rules, FAQs and erratas have pretty much killed the need for any sort of discussion. If we argue, we book until we find the answer, then we move on. None of this "Valkyries can/can't arrive from reserves" nonsense.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 6:13 pm 
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Even if you don't realise it - you still have a social contract with every person you play.

That contract involves the game being played, the rules that will be used and the tone of the game (competitive vs fluffy for example)

Just because its not written down does not mean it does not exist

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:52 pm 
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Even if you don't realise it - you still have a social contract with every person you play.

That contract involves the game being played, the rules that will be used and the tone of the game (competitive vs fluffy for example)

Just because its not written down does not mean it does not exist
Thanks Mike.
Finally, somebody that can see the forest through the trees.

As I attempted to explain earlier, a Social Contract is EVERYTHING you agree upon with your opponent before EVERY game. Points, restrictions, time limit etc. It is still important to have a discussion with a potential opponent, like I once again tried to explain earlier, for the benefit of both parties.

That was, and still is, the intention of the first post- to generate a discussion.

Our do people simply not read what I have written?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:27 pm 
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Or do people simply not read what I have written?
This.

I once copped a fair bit of flak for stating that in my opinion I would not enjoy a movie. Was told I was wrong by several people, quite rudely as well. Even after I quoted the dictionary and the meaning of the word I was still told I was wrong.

I appreciate what you are trying to achieve Ju, but the sheep have spoken. Best case scenario, let it go, save yourself the aggravation.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:06 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:19 pm 
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long time since I posted in here, but I was wondering what the world of WHFB was up to and I find this utter bollocks. Really, how can you take GW seriously anymore, so far removed from what it once was its a joke.
Give up whatever fading loyalty you have to this disgusting corporate machine, never play their (censored) games again. Nice models, sure, but at what price? The sheer fun and joy at commanding ranks of low level troops, charging and wheeling, using ACTUAL STRATEGY has all gone out the window. I miss the days of 7th edition, which is where I learnt how to play the game.
I just shake my head at how this has come to pass.
So, once again.
No actual feedback to the topic at hand?

Perhaps starting a dedicated thread where you want to slam somebody else's hobby would be best Dazza, especially considering that you haven't been involved in WFB for over 5years?

Honestly, Dazza, Obeisance - take your Jaded opinions and go. This thread doesn't need your input if it isn't constructive.

One again - are people simply not reading what I have written?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:54 pm 
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Hardly jaded, I probably have played less games of fantasy than anyone else here. I am not slamming the hobby, just Games Workshop and their moronic money making ways. Is this constructive, no it isnt, but I am just shocked at how far the game has strayed from its origins. As has already been said, if you need this level of change to make a game playable, maybe should be looking elsewhere eh?
When you have guys like Hutch, Kitty White, Boothy and Aza bowing out, guys who I had a lot of respect for when I used to play, it tells you something, no?

We have all read what you posted, it just doesnt make a lot of sense.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:02 am 
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I have read very carefully all that was written.

In the end, I think, it amounts to little, really. I can see what you are doing, Ju, but in the end, to what real profit is it? What kind of game is it that needs so detailed a contract just to agree how its to be played?

Have you been reading what others have been posting? Mal said it at the beginning; the very fact this subject needs to be raised proves just how poor this system has become. Of course, there will be people who will play it, but the rules are so vague and in some cases down right absurd that it's likely each gaming group will end up having its own house rules / interpretation.

How many players of Age of Sigmar will really see this thread? How many people regularly on Westgamer will actually play Age of Sigmar? I bring this up only because so far it seems very few (if any) actual players of the game have posted to discuss or defend it. Personally, I think AOS will end up being played by numerous, younger, smaller groups, playing amongst themselves (perhaps at stores or at their homes). Tournament / competitive players who meet regularly at events won't (or will be highly unlikely to) touch this game, and the aforementioned AOS groups are unlikely to see your post.

Should you have a game with them, you'll likely have to discuss this social contract to ensure you're all on the same page, and I think many posters here are right in stating it's a step too far - it's too much effort just to play this game.

In fact, it's rather got me thinking - the game itself aside - where are all the Age of Sigmar players and have they nothing to say regarding this proposal?

The fact there's so little 'constructive' comment might be an answer in itself.

Dazza - Thanks for the kind comment. I always enjoyed my games with you, though it's been a while now. (Still recall how my chaos chariot bounced off of your men-at-arms unit...).


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:07 am 
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Let's get this back on topic. Broader AoS discussion belongs elsewhere.

Constructive criticism is one thing, hammering someone for their choice of hobby is totally another and is not cool.

I did read the opening post in full, and my comments were intended to challenge the need and your use of this "social contract" rather than debating the specifics of it. Just because someone disagrees, doesn't mean they haven't read what is written.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:14 am 
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GW makes great models.

If you like skirmish games and you like the models I can see why people want to play the game.

If defining the social contract between friends beyond rules of social interaction helps people have a good game then good on them and go for it. I personally think the game is rubbish, however I defend other rights to like it. I personally like mage knight when it was around and I don't think that was a in-depth strategic game - different folks different strokes.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:27 pm 
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Im with Ju..

And agree (with Massaen) that there is a form of social contract for any and every game one plays.

Unfortunately AOS has some "loose" rules that make this even more necessary than most others.

I have playered a few games of AoS and while i dont hate it (and certainly dont love it) this "looseness" to some of the rules makes these extra discussions all too necessary, beit on-the-fly or prior to the first die being cast. All of which runs conter to the entire idea (seemingly) behind the game - simplification and increased play speed. The other difficult part of the pre-game is selecting ones force, sure "take whatever you have/want/can" is possible, but, i find a game which could go to either side far more enjoyable than a spankfest. NOTE: I havent played any games invilving the sudden death rules

Maybe this "competitive rule set" that has been spoken of will address the need for such a detailed social contract, maybe it will compound the issue.

But for those who love their warhammer fantasy toys, this certainly warrants discussion.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:42 pm 
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As commendable as this effort is, the fact that it's even remotely necessary unfortunately speaks volumes about the flaws of the system..
I'm glad you said it. I'd have been vilified of I did.

I'm just waiting for everyone to cut losses and play Kings of War. Which, to be honest, looks really good.
Or play community developed whfb rules.

Ju - the social contract needn't be so complicated. I think an initial game could be you eye-ball his/ her force, they do the same. Suggest changes, play it out. If it's uneven, test and adjust.

Points give a false impression of fairness - in 40k a unit of 3 Falcons is a lot better than 3 individual Falcons. In whfb 5x 20 night goblins is worse than 1 x 100. In chess, white always goes first. There is no way of balancing forces. Community comp, almost by definition will be one step behind the meta. Imbalance makes it harder to have fun, but wargamers have been managing this as long as there have been wargames.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:09 am 
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Ju the social contact does not have to be written down only discussed pre-game but in either case posting what you have does give other an expectation of how you want to play before the game is even agreed on by the other player.

Use of the battle plans in the rule book make playing the games more interesting and can limit what players use as some of them are designed for one player to use a 1/3 less models than the other or have limited deployment zones.

As an AOS player I have not found to be any issues with game balance yet and find the no use of points to be freeing as WFB 8th and other editions the points system were unbalanced anyway, so makes little difference.


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