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An Open List environment - Page 2 - WestGamer
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:47 pm 
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Its pencilled in man but I can’t say until we confirm the date with the local council. It is happening however so watch this space. should know by be next committee meeting.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:48 pm 
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I want to make some perfectly clear, unambiguous statements that should not be misinterpreted.

Firstly, I have no qualms with open list gaming, and instead dislike open list tournament environments. You'll be happy to know I that I usually play open list against friends in the lead up to tournaments and on gaming days.

Secondly, in no way were the views I recently expressed in a certain other thread (that was clearly misunderstood) was in no way directed at an individual (such as a TO), a group (such as a club) or an event (such as a tournament) but simply, and clearly stating why I had elected not to attend a particular event, or events with a similar format.
In no way was it to force others to bend to my perceived (an assumed) desires. Hopefully, that kind of talk had been put to rest.

Lastly, on the topic of showing support for the WFB community, I have a bit of further in put.
I think it commendable for all active WFB players to have stuck by the game during 8th edition. Too often (and it looks like once again) the players and organisers have be berated for being part of a perceived weak community. We copped it from the WMH crowd at the turn of the edition, and as much as there is a unspoken truce between communities, a couple of recent comments have tried to disrupt this.
Let's be absolutely clear, WFB has been growing, and with more ways to play Warhammer than ever before, it seems that the game is able to cater to more and more players, which is only a positive thing.
I doubt anybody invested in WFB wants the community or the tournament scene to disappear, and I respect the call to arms to show support for all events. I think that is highly commendable.

Hopefully, with a change of edition around the corner, we can continue to grow the community, both closer as a supportive group and with more players as well.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:37 pm 
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So thankfully Casey stepped up, preserving one of the last venerable Warhammer tournaments in the state--the GW GT is gone, Gauntlet is gone, Feat of Arms is gone, Ultimates is gone. Skulls is likely to join that list unless someone takes ownership of it.
Wow. Seeing that list makes me remember what an incredible legacy of events we've had for Warhammer in WA. I'm also proud to have TO'd 3/5 of them (though I think I did help run the first Skulls Warhammer way back in the beginning - it was quite a while ago now, so I'm actually struggling to remember that one) at various times over the past 15 years. ;)
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The only reason why all those aforementioned events are dead and buried is because the TO's got jack of it and packed it in. I would too when you have hundreds of disgruntled nerds mudslinging your event from start to finish. Some of the people on here that are the most out spoken don’t even play Warhammer anymore!! I mean WTF is up with that?!? This big fish in a little pond crap needs to stop.
This, I feel the need to respond to.

The tongue-in-cheek humblebrag above aside, the reason why I will often still contribute to the discussion on the Warhammer scene despite the fact that I'm not actively playing it any more - is because I've invested so much time over the years in helping build it. I don't actually know of any Warhammer TOs in WA that have "gotten jack of it" and packed it in. Several people who have run events in the past have simply chosen to pursue other interests and move onto other things.

To use myself as an example again (because I believe this to be common), I've not sold any of my armies or made any sweeping declarations of abandoning the game - I just have a lot of games I enjoy playing and a limited amount of time with which to do it. The games I believe to be the best or most closely meet my needs at this moment in time will always rise to the top. Warhammer is just not one of those games for me right now. It may be again at some point in the future. I still maintain an active interest in it despite not actually playing, and have every right to engage in discussion about it, as well as continue to support others that still play it. I think that anyone who claims I (or anyone in a similar boat) don't have the right to participate in these discussions because we're not currently playing is frankly - showing massive arrogance and disrespect. Non players can still have quite a vested interest in the health of the hobby scene and community (and many have contributed a lot to it over the years), so don't forget it.
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Too often (and it looks like once again) the players and organisers have be berated for being part of a perceived weak community. We copped it from the WMH crowd at the turn of the edition, and as much as there is a unspoken truce between communities, a couple of recent comments have tried to disrupt this.
*Facepalm*
Comments like this one are not only a huge misrepresentation, but cause rifts between groups in themselves.

I post some confronting comments in another Warhammer thread, and then as a result of this get labeled as a Warmahordes player attacking the Warhammer crowd. Way to start a fire where there wasn't one. :roll: I play loads of Xwing too - perhaps you'd like to drag that community into it as well?

People don't have to be representing an entire community of players when they post something on a forum - in fact they rarely do. I suggest that certain people need to stop crafting a "victim" scenario and just realise that individuals have disagreements sometimes that aren't anything bigger or more sinister than just that. Let's stop trying to craft drama where there isn't any.

Now, as far as open lists go - I completely agree that the intent of the rules as written are for games to generally be closed list in nature. There wouldn't be things designed to be hidden or reveal things that are hidden with a points cost attached to them if that wasn't the case. This is why for many years I made the requirement for hidden lists very clear in any tournament players pack I wrote.

However, the game has evolved a lot and times have changed a bit in recent years to the point where I now think that there are FAR bigger pros than cons for an open list format. The fact is that players who are more informed about what an opponent has (and have the chance to become more familiar with the rules for those things) will be set up for a much smoother and friendlier game. "Gotchas" often leave a bad taste in people's mouths and are rarely a representation of actual skill in the game. But the biggest reason of all I think is simply due to the rules bloat that has grown in the game.

Players have a huge amount to remember these days, and anything that can be done to lighten that burden I think is a really positive thing. It's a big advantage logistically for TOs as well. It doesn't remove the need for list checking by an organiser, but it does increase the chance of errors being spotted if people are able to look openly at other people's lists prior to games - or even prior to events. Less errors = a more fair outcome and less chance that someone's day or event will be ruined if something goes wrong.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:05 pm 
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I agree and disagree with 50% of what Luke is say

I agree with your views when it comes to open\closed lists. As someone who is recently back into both Fantasy and 40K, one thing I didn't like at first was the "Gotcha Mother F*&%ER" moments when someone used the scroll of butt sex on me. In saying that I now know I need use tactics and casting sequences\priorities to draw these hidden items out. So for me its a much of a muchness as I now know what to expect and lube up as required.

What I don't agree with is your take on those guys who don't play and feel the need to chime in their 2 cents worth. This is not just Fantasy or 40K but all games. There is many guys on this forum and the wider tabletop gaming community who feel that because they played a game for 10 years and walked away from it this now gives them a free pass to sit on the side lines and stir the pot. No I am not saying that you are one of these people Luke, but you have to admit there are people who sit around who have no intention of playing the game again, but want to influence the way its played at WA event to hold onto their previous status within that system.

Now you can call it arrogant or disrespectful, but it's not. It is just stating a fact that there are people that have no intention on playing this game at an event\tournament, but still want to run their mouth under the guise of having the community in mind. If these people have walked away from a game, that is fine. But don't walk away, tell everyone you don't want to be involved anymore because "This system is so broken", then still want to chime in with your view on how it should be run.

I know I wouldn't want to be known as the guy who flipped a table and rage quit, then spent the next 2 years trying to influence those who still love the game into hating it as well.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:24 pm 
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you have to admit there are people who sit around who have no intention of playing the game again, but want to influence the way its played at WA event to hold onto their previous status within that system.
Really?

I challenge you to show me where this is happening (besides in your mind). Direct links to posts will suffice.
Quote:
But don't walk away, tell everyone you don't want to be involved anymore because "This system is so broken", then still want to chime in with your view on how it should be run.
It's a public forum. People who want to contribute to such discussions have every right to, so long as its within forum rules. If you think that the opinions of the current players are the only valid ones - then yes, I do call that arrogant. Sometimes people looking in from the outside without the metaphorical "blinkers" on have some pretty useful and valid things to contribute.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:39 pm 
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Call me what you will but I speak my mind clearly and without trying to mince my words. That is the way I see the nonconstructive white noise of players both past an present who who have no intention of improving anything and just want to express their disgruntled opinions while others are trying to use public forums as a platform to build and enhance.

and I am not saying that the opinions of people who no longer play mean nothing. I am saying the those who just want to sour the mood and turn every attempt try new things into a debate about why they no longer play and in many cases its those guys who are yelling the loudest. Its the double edged nature of public forums.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:47 pm 
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No linked examples then?

Didn't think so.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:29 pm 
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hahaha cant give an inch can you champ.

white noise.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:16 am 
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Lets try get this one back on track please guys.

Is it really that much of a disadvantage showing someone your list before the game? It might just be my army but really the only item I take consistently is a dispel scroll and a shrunkin head. These items are pretty much guaranteed to be in most orc armies that are fielded anyway. By having an open list does anyone actualy feel like they are at a disadvantage?

I agree with Nazgit that there should be tournaments for both of these closed,unclosed and to be honest the more fantasy tournaments the better! :)

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:36 am 
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I used an assassin at the last tournament I played in, and it really would have taken the fun out of it if i had to reveal it at the beginning of every game. That's probably the only thing I can think of!

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:53 am 
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Exactly right Grim. My apologies.

Both open and closed their pros and cons.

Personally don’t take items within any list that I feel I would be disadvantaged if the other player knew I had or who in the army was carrying it. My Vampires list is a pretty straight forward affair when it comes to items.

Is there another solution? Is the main advantage of the open list format to just provide some transparency and allow the TO to take part in the game as well. One solution would be to have a bonus tournament point for an open list player? This may be taken as a penalty to a closed list player however. But the advantage would be picked up again by having that closed list?


I don’t think this is a big enough issue to turn someone off attending an event all together however. I mean everyone takes a dispel scroll, we know that. Are these items of such load bearing importance that if someone knows what and where they are the whole army mechanic is thrown into random unorganised chaos? I can only speak for myself I have fairly limited experience when it comes to all the WHFB armies. To be honest I don’t think I have even played against them all yet.

I think the main thing to do is just vote with your attendance. If one event doesn't like your style try another one but I’d think hard about how much fun your cutting losing out on over such a tiny part of the game. I mean are you really that hard up for a win? Can you not just make a list that is Take all Comers regardless of someone knows what’s you have and let your general ship win the battle rather than the "Gotcha" card?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:41 am 
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For the most part open vs closed lists comes down to taste. It really doesn’t affect how competitive or random, or legit a game is. Some like the tactical challenge of having to account for any items that may or may not be there, others prefer making tactical choices based on what is actually there (basically – do you enjoy mind games?)

I don’t vote with my feet on this at all, the change is so minor that I would go to any event that looks good regardless of open or closed lists.

There are also degrees of openness. In one case a player might go “I have 6 fanatics in the army”….but not reveal exactly where within his four night goblin units they are. Alternatively it might be a case of “this unit has this many fanatics, this unit has none etc”


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:37 pm 
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True but you have to show which NG unit is which as the fanatics are upgrades for the unit, I find that any good tournie player will use chaff to lure out the fanatics if there is any or not anyway :( (remember the game against your lizardmen :) )

Now that I look at the orc and goblin army book there is quite a few things that would be handy if they are kept secret.
Such as

Skull wand of Kaloth
Sneaky gits in common gobs
Fanatics in NG's
the giant spider unkillable goblin warboss build

I guess it really depends if you are relying on these things to win the game.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:09 pm 
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Have people thought of a pseudo open list? by this I mean that you have everything revealed in what's in the army, but not where it is making those hidden units (fanatics, assassins and etc...) to have some cover but the person is somewhat aware of them.

Another thing is it more or less of a challenge with an open list, as it does provide an additional challenge for both you and your opponent as you try to match up fights to either put things into your favour or balance them.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:22 pm 
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Have people thought of a pseudo open list? by this I mean that you have everything revealed in what's in the army, but not where it is making those hidden units (fanatics, assassins and etc...) to have some cover but the person is somewhat aware of them.

Another thing is it more or less of a challenge with an open list, as it does provide an additional challenge for both you and your opponent as you try to match up fights to either put things into your favour or balance them.
Nice idea Jarrod, you may be onto something there as long as your amry isn't one dimensional ( ie only one place the "hidden" item could be)

It would be something we have to ask the TO about doing as some people may supply a full open list and others may supply a pseudo list and I can see bee's getting in peoples bonnets.

There is a few items I don't think that people would take anymore though such as the flaming banner. Pretty much every demon prince that I have ever played has dragon helm or gem getting a 2+ ward against it. I would probably never take this now just to stop the flying prince running into my black orcs and being unkillable.

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