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 Post subject: An Open List environment
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:34 pm 
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Hi all

I started this thread to discuss tournament games with an open list environment. Mainly due to the upcoming skulls event and see peoples perspective on this issue.
Personally I have only ever played with a closed list but the armies i have fielded i don't really think would have been effected if the game was open listed or not.

What are peoples main issues with the open list/ closed list format. Would it change your army? How you play your games? Would you build an army with less magic items due to this?

Recently at Chaos against Humanity we were asked to bring additional copies of our army lists why was this?

3 of the 4 people i played asked to see my list, supplying there own at the same time at start of the game. I personally didn't mind my characters don't really take any magic items or banners etc i didn't then play any different to how i would have played these games. Was this a common occurrence for people at this last tournament or was i committing a grave mistake in revealing my list?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:47 pm 
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For a closed list, like at Chaos Against Humanity, my army list that I give to opponents has all magic items and points values deleted. So that people can see all the 'WYSIWYG' parts of the army in the list, but not the hidden info. I dont play an army with assassins, but I wonder if it would be fair to delete them from your list too when you show your opponent?

Lots of people handed me lists that listed their magic items, so I wouldnt get 'caught out' by an unkillable Dragonhelm/Banner of the World Dragon unit. Open lists evens the playing field here too, as I had a small advantage over a few opponents due to this.

I feel the gotcha moments of closed lists is actually less competitive than open lists, so I dont have any problem with open lists in general. Havnt heard a good argument against open lists yet, but I would like to.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:45 pm 
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I always played open list and don't ever recall my opponents ever providing a closed list fwiw.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:45 am 
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I have a slight preference for open list since it allows players to make more informed tactical choices rather than getting diddled by something they didn’t know about. It does make one (maybe two) magic items redundant though.

On the flip side, you can get some quite entertaining mind games in closed lists - my bloodthirster once spent an entire game running away from an empire captain on a Pegasus just in case he had the speculum (he didn’t), it was pretty funny.

I have never made major changes to my list based on open vs closed. Minor things like including flaming attacks on a unit/character might occur based on if I will or will not know what its safe to put them up against.

For a closed list event its common practice to run through the ‘open information’ before the game e.g. “this high elf prince has heavy armour, a lance, and a barded steed” vs “this high elf prince has the armour of claledor, the star lance, and a barded steed”


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:14 am 
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Quote:
On the flip side, you can get some quite entertaining mind games in closed lists - my bloodthirster once spent an entire game running away from an empire captain on a Pegasus just in case he had the speculum (he didn’t), it was pretty funny.

:)


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:33 pm 
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A mighty chaos lord and a weakling night goblin shaman stared at each other from the relative safety of their own armies. Just before the mighty horns blew to announce the charge, the night goblin started the trek to the centre of the battlefield, a white flag held out in front of him. The chaos lord rode out to meet the goblin and the two made eye contact - nervously at first, before the night goblin declared

"well, I have a dispel scroll..."

Please. Warhammer should be played with closed lists. If people want open, fine. But closed makes a lot more sense

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:34 pm 
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Ive personally never played closed list tournaments back in nz so i dont know what theyre like but personally for me i do find knowing my opponents list and items makes a large difference to how i set my army up. Probably more because i am so used to this than closed lists.

I have no problem against either though and out of habit and not knowing that CAH was closed list i always offered my opponent my list and ask for theirs.. i think that in a closed list environment if both players are happy with it then sharing a list is fIne. What are your guys thoughts?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:12 pm 
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Quote:
A mighty chaos lord and a weakling night goblin shaman stared at each other from the relative safety of their own armies. Just before the mighty horns blew to announce the charge, the night goblin started the trek to the centre of the battlefield, a white flag held out in front of him. The chaos lord rode out to meet the goblin and the two made eye contact - nervously at first, before the night goblin declared

"well, I have a dispel scroll..."

Please. Warhammer should be played with closed lists. If people want open, fine. But closed makes a lot more sense
After something that popped up in the Skulls thread, I just wanted to say that I am not 'boycotting' events due to them being open or closed lists. I am 'choosing not to go' because of either financial or other reasons. I also believe as a TO, feedback on why you may or may not be attending an event is very important, and this feedback should be taken - and given - in a constructive manner.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:33 pm 
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Quote:
Ju wrote:
Though you may not miss me at the event, I won't be attending due to open lists.
I've made a conscious decision not to attend open list format events while 8th edition is still around.



Seconded. And it eas looking good too. No end times shenanigans etc... Sigh
so we can just ignore this statement from you saying that your not going due to open lists? (or seconding Ju for saying it at least) :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:29 pm 
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I like both open and closed list games. I feel that they add something unique to the event: either you know what you will be facing and use that to your tactical advantage, or you don’t and have to prepare for the worst.

Both have their place in a tournament setting and I think that both types of events should be included in WA. Some people may prefer one over the other which is fine, but in including them there is a greater variety of events to attend.

Whether an open or closed list would change my army is hard for me to answer. It would also depend on the event itself: whether it’s ET, 2000pts, 2600pts, a comp event, doubles or whatever. At that stage I would probably keep my list mostly as is. I’m comfortable with it but still want to improve. There has been a huge injection of new stuff into WHFB in the last few months so there is a lot I have to get used to as it is.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:30 am 
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I just want to play some warhammer and I couldn't care less.

In saying that, I can see how a new player that gets stung with the "Hazaaa I have a potion of kill your whole army on a 2+" could get a little turned off.

But apart from that I dont mind. If it's closed than just be a better player and "draw out" that dispell scroll.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:14 pm 
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Just putting this whole situation in context... (and as an outsider, I wasn't involved in the organisation of Skulls FB 2015 and am no longer on the Outpost committee)

The main reason Skulls is open list is so that someone who is qualified and willing to answer Warhammer questions and check lists can also play at the tournament.

No experienced TO at Outpost has even passing knowledge of the current state of Warhammer to be able to do the same, and no-one who does have that knowledge was able to step up.

So thankfully Casey stepped up, preserving one of the last venerable Warhammer tournaments in the state--the GW GT is gone, Gauntlet is gone, Feat of Arms is gone, Ultimates is gone. Skulls is likely to join that list unless someone takes ownership of it.

People need to have a look at themselves and the state of the community and decide what they want. If they want these things to continue, they need to step up. And I'm not talking about people like Casey and the others that have started organising tournaments in the last couple of years since the old tournaments have fallen away--I'm talking about the rest of you who play in tournaments and at clubs and are part of the community.

Get involved people! Act, belong and commit and all that :)

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:37 pm 
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Thanks for the kudos, Orange! :lol:

The other thing that I wanted to add was that us 'Hammerers not only need to put our hands in our pockets and run events to see the continuation of the hobby, but we have to make an effort to attend as many Warhammer events as possible. If you want to continue to have the option of attending events in the future, then current events need your support. Skulls is a prime example - it was a bloody travesty that only 10-odd people rocked up last year. When an event fails to attract a decent following, the TOs have to seriously consider whether or not to run the event again the following year. If the event doesnt get run the following year, then thats one less event on the calendar for us to attend. After attending Chaos Against Humanity I can assure everyone that 40+ people know of the existence of Skulls Fantasy 2015 (I handed the fliers for it out myself) - if Skulls gets half that number attending then I would consider it a success.

So come on, guys. Lets put aside our differences and rally together to keep the hobby alive in Perth. If you dont have any plans on a tournament weekend, buy a ticket and show the community your support.




...Oh, and Skulls is open list because I thought it would be fun. The fact that I can play is just icing on the cake. :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:44 pm 
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You know these forums are poison sometimes. Before I went to the Chaos v Humanity event I was given the impression that all GW system tournaments held in WA were either dead or full of people that basically hated themselves, each other and the game itself. This is obviously not the case and I had a ball. But once again as soon as the tournament was finished, people were back on here bitching and moaning about the event and the system again.

I have said this before, and I got shot down for saying it but bitching and moaning is not constructive. No event will ever be perfect, that’s because humans are involved.

The only reason why all those aforementioned events are dead and buried is because the TO's got jack of it and packed it in. I would too when you have hundreds of disgruntled nerds mudslinging your event from start to finish. Some of the people on here that are the most out spoken don’t even play Warhammer anymore!! I mean WTF is up with that?!? This big fish in a little pond crap needs to stop.

But I agree, If you want an event to run a certain way then step up and run an event yourself. If it goes well then other TO’s will follow suit and emulate your event. If not then you live and learn. I have started this process myself and I am now on the KRAGS committee and will be involved in organising and playing many of the KRAGS Tournaments. One day I would love to run a big GT with a hobby focus with plenty of prize support and dancing monkeys, but one step at a time.

I for one am going to both the 40k and WHFB for Skullz. Why wouldn't you, full weekend of dice rolling sounds like heaven


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:37 pm 
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Quote:
I have started this process myself and I am now on the KRAGS committee and will be involved in organising and playing many of the KRAGS Tournaments..

I for one am going to both the 40k and WHFB for Skullz. Why wouldn't you, full weekend of dice rolling sounds like heaven
I try to attend as many events as my Wife will let me :lol:

@ ArtfulDodger: When is Kraggs announcing a WHFB event, I was hoping to see another Unending Battle Lines or something similar? There is nothing in the upcoming event calendar?

@ Ratlady: I'll be at Skulls, and fully support the effort you're putting in, its really appreciated and you're a true credit to the community.

I was at Skulls last year and will continue till my army has been squatted by GW. But then I'll just buy some Gyro's and call them Dwarfs sigh.

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