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End times magic post khaine - Page 2 - WestGamer
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:38 am 
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As far as I can see there is nothing stopping “the army” dispelling with as many dice as they like.

There is no requirement for a wizard to be the one dispelling. In fact the rule book specifically gives us the option not to use a wizard.

There is no restriction on the number of dice that can be used to dispel in the rule book.

Khaine only restricts the number of dispel dice a wizard can use. Thus if a wizard is not being used there is no restriction.

With the book of asher comet only needs a 7 on two dice to cast. With a little luck it wouldn’t be unreasonable to try this 4-5 times per turn.

Not all magic missiles are powerful, but the following could be two diced reliably (with the book):
Banishment, level 2 fire ball, flame cage, curse of anrahire, searing doom, golden hounds, thunderbolt, spirit leach, caress of laniph, doombolt, soul quentch.

These are not low power spells! Yes they are not in the same league as mindrazor, but we are not talking about a few single D6 S4 hits being thrown about here. That’s enough searing doom to drop phoenix malekith in a single phase with no problems at all…….Nagash may as well not bother deploying against a S6 banishment. And people had better bring 4++ and MR2+ on all their characters because a unit of warlocks can cast unboosted spirit leach on any unit within 52” of the elf table edge on turn 1 (and they cast on anything but a double 1 (double one or double two for caress))


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:20 pm 
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Lets be honest though - a spell cast on 2 dice 4-5 times a phase will probably be stopped 2-3 times a phase, meaning its only really 2-3 comets. Similarly getting Anraheir cast on 2 of your units a turn is annoying, but its certainly not game-breaking as long as you havent invested in a deathstar, and there is definetely nothing stopping you from doing the same thing to your opponent.

I actually think this interpretation of the rules is refreshing - it will change the meta, make other spell lores viable (eg: metal), reduce test-or-die spam and add an element of strategy to the magic phase outside of 6-dice-I-win. Im not saying its not good, im just saying that its not going to be game breaking.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:16 pm 
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I'd like to point out that even with a book of +1 you have a 17 % chance of failing a 10+ spell so cast it three times and you got a 50% chance of failing.

Also if you do take a book there's no 4++ or magic resistance 3 happening off that character. You could always get another character and take the magic resistance there, but this is starting to get expensive. Add in the cost of the unit you'll use as a bunker ( with these new rules for knowing all the spell's you can't risk your wizard in the open or your just begging for magic missiles) and can anyone really see a properly protected lvl 4 wizard for under 500 points? (270 for mage 80 for magic resist character 150 for unit)


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:51 pm 
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…..thats the same as rolling a 2+ on a single D6……them’s some good odds, five out of six casts would be successful. Of course there is also the chance of only being allocated a single D6 to cast which would decrease the probability of spamming successfully …….would be interesting to see the maths on what results in more casts per magic phase – 2 dice spam or 3 dice spam, and how many 5+ casting rolls a wizard can realistically expect per phase.

Multi lore casters are certainly an extreme case since they can switch from one great and easy to cast spell to the next. E.g. Morathi could throw out a few doombolts, then switch to spirit leach for a bit, then switch to caress, and finish up with a try at withering.

Few characters can get ward and MR anyway since they tend to be talismans. Needs to be an armoured caster to pull that off (only warriors, ogres, vampires, slaan, and loremasters of hoeth spring to mind). As such a MR caddy will be wanted most of the time anyway (unless someone is prepared to just chance the snipes), seems like a terrible risk to take given the power of casting (and the number of elf players all with access to fast cav death casters).

I think it will be important to see how big a disadvantage not having a wizard becomes. It would be a shame if self-destructs became game ending.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:57 pm 
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Sounds like the win-dragon banner just got a whole lot better. How do you think no magic armies will fare now?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:34 pm 
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My dwarf army is basically outclassed at the moment. The basic problem is with the new magic rules it will be almost mandatory to take 2 runesmiths with dispel scroll rune and the rune of Valaya just to counter the enemy magic for no offensive advantage to your own army. That's bare minimum of 250 points just for a decent pair of runesmiths whose usefulness is one spell each.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:09 pm 
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There is no way that you should be able to cast the same spell over and over again if your opponent has successfully dispelled that spell.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfhfAe8 ... xfZ1RlAW4A


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:28 pm 
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Fear not Dwarfs!
You still have the BEST Magic defense in the game. Where opposing wizards have limitations on the number of dice to cast with, a Dwarf army (because you would dispel with the army) has no limitations on the numberoff dive in addition to always getting plus two to the roll (see Dwarf army special rules).
As long as you have the dice, you can shut down the spells you don't want to worry about reliably.

Also, if youre going to to watch that video, the important stuff happens from 16min onwards

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:19 pm 
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Quote:
There is no way that you should be able to cast the same spell over and over again if your opponent has successfully dispelled that spell.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfhfAe8 ... xfZ1RlAW4A
I watched this from the 16 min mark as Ju said (cause quite frankly I didnt want to listen to this guy b*tching for nearly half an hour). How is this about casting a spell multiple times? He basically says that playing using either interpretation of spell casting is not fun.

Lets all just cool our jets, play some games and see what happens first. If it turns out to be crap then im sure we can all agree to either interpret the rules differently or just use the regular Magic system.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:32 pm 
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Or alternatively:

Image

:lol: :lol: :lol: :P :P :P :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:43 pm 
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Also, while I remember it.
Similar to how the army can choose to dispel with no limit, I imagine a bound spell can be attempted to be cast without rolling to determine a power dice cap as this won't be a wizard trying to cast a spell. The only limitation is the max 6 dice to cast restriction from our big red book.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:52 pm 
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All,

The 8th Rules for magic is that if you try to cast a spell and your enemy dispels it then that spell cannot be cast again by the casting wizard.

So "If the enemy has FAILED his dispel attempt (or not even attempted one!), the spell is cast successfully and its effect is now resolved".

To me this is clear as day, if a spell is dispelled then it cannot be cast again by the casting wizard. 

The question is, does this mean if you take two wizards with the same lore do you get two chances to cast the same spell?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:17 pm 
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Quote:

To me this is clear as day, if a spell is dispelled then it cannot be cast again by the casting wizard. 

The question is, does this mean if you take two wizards with the same lore do you get two chances to cast the same spell?
It actually days that the spell cannot be cast again that phase, and makes no mention of casting Wizard.
It seems that regardless of source, if you cannot attempt to cast the spell later that phase by one Wizard, then (in most situations) no other Wizard can attempt to cast it.

The biggest loser is Invokation of Nehek.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:52 am 
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Hi wolf I'd like to quote the vampire counts vampiric power dark acolyte.

The vampire adds d3 to the casting total whenever he successfully casts invocation of Nehek (regardless of the casting value chosen).

Please note the successfully cast part of that sentence which is exactly the same as the wording in end times khaine. If this power adds d3 to the casting total AFTER Dispel attempts it has no use at all. The only way this ability works is by raising the casting value before dispel rolls.

Therefore successfully cast MUST for this ability to make any sense be simply meeting the casting value.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:05 am 
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That video was a pretty bad example. It was very biased, and they played some of the rules wrong. (as an example he had a big whinge about only being allocated one dispel dice against the game winning cast of transformation.......how was this any different from getting a bad split of power and dispel dice currently?)

Wolf – My God that is the exact turn of phrase.....its another one! We now have:
casting attempt (rolling the dice to try and meet the casting value)
cast (meeting the casting value)
cast successfully (opponent has failed or not attempted a dispel)
successfully cast (um.....same as above?)

Mark – dark acolyte had to get the FAQ treatment, they didnt change the wording but did clarify when it took effect. The wording for it is the same as most lore attributes, so if it works the way you want then its impossible to block a lot of things (like the +1 ward for high magic, lifebloom, curse of undeath etc), these effects have not been played like you are suggesting anywhere since 8th came out....its pretty safe to say dark acolyte was incorrectly worded rather than a revolution in the way the magic phase works.

In addition which bit of khaine is worded the same as dark acolyte (I cant find it), if it was worded the same I don't think we would be having this discussion because it would be clearly resolved.

Anyone up for a game at TGA on Sunday to test some of this out on table (preferably the spam casting approach since I have a few games of the other interp already)


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