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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 10:25 pm 
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Hi All,

As most of you probably already know, End Times: Khaine has introduced some drastic changes to how the magic phase works in warhammer. I'm not sure I can post a complete summary as I've only had one game, but the key points are that we now roll 4d6 for PD,every magic caster knows all spells from their lore (effectively Loremaster), can cast each spell mutliple times and the casting attempts have a random (d6) maximum of dice you can use.

As this is all very new, I'd like for you all to share you're experiences of using these new rules.

I've played my first game with End Times magic today. Battle Line scenario rules. My CD took Hashut and Metal, while the DE took Shadow and Death (warlocks know all spells from the two lores). In general the magic phase worked well. The difference in number of PD didn't influence the game too much. If anything it made things less random and reduced the number of unbalanced phases (like 4vs2, where one side just rolls 4 dice and theres nothing you can do). The random number of dice to cast means the small spells were cast most of the time - stuff like soulblight or Withering were spammed a lot. No single big spell made it thorough, though a number of purple suns and flames of Azgorh were attempted.

All in all, taking into account the limitations we had, the new magic phase wasn't bad. I'm looking forward to how it will look in future games.

Further, it seems reading Khaine that this revised magic phase is only used when playing ET rules or a combined Elves army (please correct me if I'm wrong). This makes for a very interesting/ difficult discussion on how this will effect Tournaments moving forward.

Discuss :!:

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 8:46 am 
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I managed to get four games with the new rules in over the weekend. I was using lizards, host of Aestyrion, and host of the phoenix king. All games were played under the assumptions that “successfully cast = spell not dispelled”, and that as soon as a spell is not successfully cast then no other wizards can attempt that spell (the book makes mentions of spells, not wizards in this regard).

Overall I have been really liking the new rules a lot!

As you say, there have been no phases where the split of dice leaves the defender completely at the mercy of the caster (no more 6 dice purple sun turn after turn).

Sometimes the caster can run away a little with the same spell (I think Yordan cast hysterical frenzy four times in one phase in one game….partly because I was letting it go, and partly because I couldn’t get the dice to muster a dispel)…..so I think there is probably a comparable amount of luck in the magic phase to the previous rules, but it will probably effect smaller spells rather than bigger spells the most.
It seemed that rather than having one or two spells you want to power through it is better to have a library of similar spell. We were finding that a level 4 would quickly run out of relevant spells if one or two were dispelled early. It might be better to have 2-3 lower level wizards with lores that offer similar effects and work in spell “sets” e.g. defensive set – speed of light, phas protection, miasma, enfeebling.

Some interesting observations:
- warlocks did not perform as well as previously – the random dice allocation really hurt them since many of the spells they want to cast are unlikely/dicey on less than 3 dice. They also can’t repeat the same spell anything like as effectively any more.
- few end times spells were attempted. The caster normally rolls badly once or twice per turn anyway, so throwing away a dice on a “wing and prayer” attempt didn’t seem like a good plan very often.
- meteoric ironclad was the exception to the above…….thats a seriously good spell for a 15+.
- Storm of renewal looks fantastic on paper, but when everyone is throwing so many buffs and hex’s around, something to actually help win a combat generally seemed more helpful than healing up a unit. This would depend on the units in question though…..Josef with his squadron of frost hearts is going to love this one!
- the option for some of the end times spells (generally the lower cost ones) was a surprisingly good counter balancer against the library of spells the loremaster of hoeth knows.
- the wandering deliberations slaan is really quite crazy (Teclis and Kairos would be just as bonkers)……it’s the access to all the end times spells that really sets them apart from the rest.

The book says the rules are used when:
- scenario says to
- an elven host is used
- either player wants to use them

So basically the old magic rules can be used if both players agree not to use the new ones.

If the rules are used at an event then players will either need to track down the general rules (pretty easy on the net), or ask the TO for a summary. The only issue will be the end times spells themselves since (before the soft cover books arrive) books and cards tend to sell out fast. An interim solution (if required at all) could be to disallow the end times spells since they would be the hardest rules to track down if someone didn’t want to trawl through various forums for scans and missed out of the book/cards. Besides that a summary of the magic phase is easy to provide.

Before anyone attacks me for suggesting a rule not be used, this would just be a possible interim suggestion until the rules became more widely available.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:36 am 
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The new rules actually tone down super spells quite well, this is something that people have been crying about endlessly on the internet for some time. Want Dwellers, Purple Sun, Okkams or Dreaded 13th? You have 2 dice to cast, bad luck. All aboard the power scroll train I guess. All of a sudden, Lore of Metal is going to be the new go to lore everyone crys about, 2++ ward on 4 dice is crazy good.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:16 am 
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It certainly is a very good spell, probably on par with mindrazor before we consider the fact that it can’t be dispelled. It will be interesting to see if it ends up more or less hated than dwellers and purple sun were….In fact purple sun is no harder to cast. It will be interesting to see what ogre, orc, nurgle daemon etc players hate more.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:46 am 
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I am going to chime in a from the limited experience I have had I think GW did a great job balancing out the magic phase. Its far more interesting and the super spells are going to be a very rare site indeed. Casey say good buy to dreaded 13th.

I agree with most of what was said above. Not sure about loremaster and slann now knowing all spells. Don't think it will break the game just up the power level of those two characters which probably needed it anyway. Its completely destroyed my use of slannesh magic however, made nurgle magic a lot more useful.

Strong lores are now those with med to low casting costs and those where there are 3+ useful spells in a lore. I am thinking fire is a great lore now on a level 1 or 2. Lots of reasonable useful spells which get better with multiple castings.

Obviously metal is a goto lore and the heavens wind blast could be really fun (I just moved your unit 3d6 inches backwards :) I also think the dispel scroll is mandatory now as stop the spell once and its gone for the round. Loving the changes.

Not sure about end of time characters though, I think for general tournaments these characters should be not allowed.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:23 pm 
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Yeah, because there are just sooooo many units in your army that I can Dreaded 13th, Yordan. :roll:

It will be interesting to see what "successfully cast" means, as that will have a big impact on how armies are built. Im hoping its resolved as "the casting level of the spell is met", as otherwise the rules kind of d*ck over armies that only get access to a single Lore (aka Skaven and especially OnG). Also I want to Wither Karl's army off the table and make him cry. :twisted:

I dont know how these rules will be implemented in a tournament setting. Everyone uses these rules? Only Elf armies use these rules? No one uses these rules?

At any rate, the ET: Skaven book as been rumoured for possibly a January release. I will just ride these rules out over Christmas then take whatever OP stuff I happen to get next year (im personally holding out for "Skaven armies get to play with 2x the amount of points your opponent has :twisted: ).

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:21 pm 
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Casey Karl had some FAQ that said successful means it was not dispelled which means those big spells are going to really hard to get.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:37 pm 
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I think the “successfully cast = casting value met” argument is pretty blooming shaky. The lifebloom attribute has had the same wording since day 1 of this edition and suddenly several years on people want to start questioning it……seriously, has anyone tried to claim that life and vampire magic heals one wound regardless of if the spell is cast or not, or that high elves get +1 to their ward even if their spells are dispelled…..how about the lizard high magic, so I can swap spells out even if they were dispelled?......Pull the other one.

For what its worth, the general internet consensus seem to be leaning toward “successfully cast = not dispelled” approach, so it will probably take an explicit FAQ to allow “gatling magic” to be a thing.

I think we should see these characters is a good few games before talk of banning happens. Besides all the on table tricks that can be used to limit these characters (surely we haven’t all forgotten how to deal with a 7th ed star dragon or blood thirster?) If we just look at black and white options without any of that on table arm wavey stuff, let’s look at some options against Karl Franz:

Elves
- Tyrion or malekith will kill him
- bolt throwers wear him down
- banner of the world dragon
- phoenix guard can hold him for a long time
- arcane unforging
- meteoric ironclad and storm of renewal help mitigate his damage

Chaos:
- regen plague bearers will hold him for a long time (especially with the lore of nurgle)
- cannons
- cheap chaff (nurgle ungor could be a real pain)
- meteoric ironclad
- traitor kin! (that would be hysterical)

Skaven:
- storm banner
- slaves
- doomwheels
- cannons
- fell blade (potentially not for much longer!)
- withering
Skaven are laughing!

Lizards:
- meteoric ironclad, storm of renewal
- arcane unforging
- stegs with sharp horns as a finishing blow
Lizards are going to need magic, but with it in effect they then have the hitting power to grind him down.

Orcs:
- manglers, fanatics, cheap chariots, pump wagons – all disposable things that hit hard
- doom divers, rock lobbers, spear chuckers
- hordes of goblins
- Nikkit Nikkit (this would be even funnier than traitor kin…and can’t be dispelled)

Undead:
- easy resurrection of champions and the summoning of new champions with lore of vamps, nekarah, and undeath.
- catapults backed by smiting
- terrorgheists (not a great counter since they are such a good target for cannons)
- easy access to all lores?
Undead might have a hard time. Their best units are very vulnerable to Karl and cant flee. They will probably need to keep on summoning chaff for him to kill. I cant remember if there is a vampiric power that grants access to rulebook lores, if so they just got all the end times spells to fight him with.

Empire:
- cannons, lots of them
- all the end times spells
- depending on Valtans initiative he might take two large bites out of Karl

Dwarfs:
- warmachines, lots of them, and they are really good
- rune combo of big monster killing (cant remember exactly what is possible, but any sort of dwarf lord with ASF and multiple wounds at S20) should keep a wounded Karl thinking long and hard about getting too close to the dwarf line.
- slayers would hurt
- iron drakes would hurt

Brets:
- grail knights + storm of renewal (every knight can channel and storm can’t be dispelled)
- Trebs – not going to work, too good for cannons
- HKB + ASF, not likely to work but the risk is much higher for Karl than the brets
Brets will struggle, unless they can get the grail knights in and hold him forever. On the flip side Karl only kills 5’ish knights per round of combat, and storm heal 8 per cast. He isn’t going to reap in points all that fast.

Ogres:
- Okay I don’t have an answer for this one.

In summary:
- Elves, skaven, orcs, empire, dwarfs, lizards, and chaos have all the tools they need to kill him.
- Brets and undead have to try and hold him.
- Ogres get the short straw, but even they have two cannons to have a crack, and a charging stone horn would do some wounds.

Obviously with this I have not considered what else is in the empire army. If they are throwing a storm of renewal at Karl every turn then he is going to be a lot harder to kill. Im not trying to say that karl is an 800 point waste of time….he isn’t...…he is fast, mobile, tough, and very hard hitting. However if people look at the tools available its not like he is unstoppable. Yes he is more potent than a 7th ed star dragon, but so are the counters!


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:07 pm 
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Off the top of my head vamps have a 75 point item that lets them take other lores, just not lore of life.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:21 pm 
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Had a check and you are slightly right. There is a 25 point vampiric power that allows use of any brb lore bar life.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:41 pm 
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Quote:
Had a check and you are slightly right. There is a 25 point vampiric power that allows use of any brb lore bar life.
Ah yes, got confused with Master of Black Arts. At 25 points thats a really good buy. I am surprised more Vamp players don't take it. Vampire Lords and baby Vamps with Lore of Beasts would be fun. Tomb Banshee's with ghostly howl and 4 S6 attacks instead of just the 1 S3.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:46 pm 
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Quote:
Not sure about end of time characters though, I think for general tournaments these characters should be not allowed.
Can we please leave this thread about opinions and experiences of playing the new magic phase and possible impact to the Tournament scene. :D

Plus I don't think the person who takes a Daemon Prince with a 3 up ward re-rolling 1's and a core choice unit of 17 trolls, needs to start talking about comping just ET characters. :roll:

_________________
"Today we play the game of pain"

The malevolent Over-Master Zhudhak Ironbull, famed for riding into battle on Abyss's most fierce Abyssal Dragon - Cacus the fire breathing giant.

Outpost6030 I challenge you!!


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:47 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
Not sure about end of time characters though, I think for general tournaments these characters should be not allowed.
Can we please leave this thread about opinions and experiences of playing the new magic phase and possible impact to the Tournament scene. :D

Plus I don't think the person who takes a Daemon Prince with a 3 up ward re-rolling 1's and a core choice unit of 17 trolls, needs to start talking about comping just ET characters. :roll:
It's the BSB with a 3+ ward re-rolling ones, but your point still rings true. :D


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