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ATC Committee vote on supplements, escalation etc - Page 2 - WestGamer
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:55 pm 
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The same goes for players: army lists are published in advance, so everyone has a chance to find out what an Eldar Rulebreaker-2000 does.
I nearly googled that :D

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:30 pm 
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Sorry but if you are reading this you can read any of the digital versions GW has produced... And don't tell me you HAVE to buy every book as we all know there are ways around this
I don't think it's reasonable to expect TO's to go around and collect every addition to the game from the seedy back alleys of the internet.

I think the requirement should be on the player to provide any additional materials with them on the day. The TO's can check whatever lists they can, with what rules they have, before the event. Then on the day, they request to see, then check ruleset for whatever they didn't have access to.

I just don't think it's right to force TO's to collect all the required stuff. Lord knows they invest enough time and effort already.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:19 pm 
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Posted by Difsta:
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The (ATC Committee) are currently voting on how codex supplements, formations, data slates, esacalation, stronghold assault and cut off dates will be used this ATC. The vote cut off is 12:00pm Wednesday the 15th of January. If you can prod your state rep that would be grand
Anyone with an interest in 40K or the ATC is welcome to suggest alternatives, with the goal being to have an answer ready for Malgnant to submit next Wednesday.
I just arrived back in Perth this arvo, so have some emails on the ATC stuff to catch up on. I'm happy for people to post their input here but please be mindful that the opinions of those who are actually interested/likely to play for the state team in 2014 (or have in the past) are the ones I'm primarily interested in here.
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Sorry but if you are reading this you can read any of the digital versions GW has produced... And don't tell me you HAVE to buy every book as we all know there are ways around this
I don't think it's reasonable to expect TO's to go around and collect every addition to the game from the seedy back alleys of the internet.
Exactly right.

Mike and I have had many discussions on the issue of rules accessibility in 40K at the moment (we argued a bit about in on the latest episode of World's End ;) ) but I'm still not convinced. It's just not a reasonable expectation that everyone has access to an e-reader. It may be in years to come, but it's certainly not now.
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I think the requirement should be on the player to provide any additional materials with them on the day. The TO's can check whatever lists they can, with what rules they have, before the event. Then on the day, they request to see, then check ruleset for whatever they didn't have access to.
Sounds fine in theory, but in reality - a TO checking lists on the day of an event is a bad idea. TO's have plenty of stuff to worry about on the day of an event and if they're smart - checking army lists should not be one of them. It can work for game systems where the list building process is relatively simple (like Warmachine/Hordes or Malifaux), but not for games with complex list builds like Warhammer & 40K.

The decision of whether to check army lists or not is one that a TO makes according to how much risk they are willing to take on at their event that a player will stuff something up that could impact the overall result or enjoyment of the players at the event. A lot of the time it can be just fine, but the reason why you kind of do want to check each list carefully is because of that one occasion where someone accidentally takes an illegal combo or is over points - and someone cries foul about it after the fact and sours the enjoyment for everyone who competed. You just don't want to have that to deal with when it's too late.

The experience level of players is never a guarantee of list quality either. From many years of running the Ultimates (where the best of the state come to play) I can tell you that a LOT of the players who should definitely know better still make some DUMB mistakes when writing lists. Some years nearly half of the lists submitted have had an error of some sort! It is always better to carry out any checking like this prior to the event so that if a change needs to be made, the player can be informed before arriving with the incorrect models/game strategy/rules. If someone needs to replace a unit in their list, they need to know in enough time to know to buy/paint/bring it.

The availability of rules to do these checks for tournament 40K at the moment is definitely a challenge. I'm quite fortunate in that I have access to pretty much everything, but I can imagine that for some (especially first timer) TOs it can be quite a barrier to a successful or smooth event. Just expecting players to supply them on the day really isn't going to cover this gap I'm afraid.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:57 pm 
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For me how I'd run it (or 40k tourney/games in general)
- No escalation
- Stronghold is in, but no D weapons, or AV15 fortifications, if deploying on skyshield must be within deployment zone, cannot take the 'groups' of fortifcations (so one choice only)
- Dataslates take up ally slot (and for the sake of this tournament take up the race allocation slot as well, allies also take up the race allocation slot)
- No Grimoire of True Names (IMHO it's worse than the seer-council as there's a decent amount of reduce/ignore cover floating around, you don't get cover in melee (yes hit and run is a thing) and I can't see an 'easy' fix for them)

On the TO's having access to all the rules, if all they're doing is checking points add up that's fine, if they're comp-ing the event/looking to dissallow certain things then 100% they should have access to everything otherwise they're not doing their job properly (TO's tend to have friends they can borrow material off so it's a non-issue IMO)

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:38 am 
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For me how I'd run it (or 40k tourney/games in general)
- No escalation
- Stronghold is in, but no D weapons, or AV15 fortifications, if deploying on skyshield must be within deployment zone, cannot take the 'groups' of fortifcations (so one choice only)
- Dataslates take up ally slot (and for the sake of this tournament take up the race allocation slot as well, allies also take up the race allocation slot)
- No Grimoire of True Names (IMHO it's worse than the seer-council as there's a decent amount of reduce/ignore cover floating around, you don't get cover in melee (yes hit and run is a thing) and I can't see an 'easy' fix for them)

On the TO's having access to all the rules, if all they're doing is checking points add up that's fine, if they're comp-ing the event/looking to dissallow certain things then 100% they should have access to everything otherwise they're not doing their job properly (TO's tend to have friends they can borrow material off so it's a non-issue IMO)
my 5c
This is funny coming from someone who doesn't even know there own codex and I had to keep telling them there own rules during our game at ultimates :oops: having access to a codex does not mean said person is going to get it right example mals comment. I don't agree with the data slate aspect as such because some data slates are just a character and some are formations taking up an allies slot for a character I think is a bit to much. The restrictions on single use of codex's is quite limiting , I went to ATC last year and didn't get to take a list that I would normally use , took the said screamer council and did crap. This event is hard core gaming , your playing against people who know how to deal with things like a one trick gimmic like a screamer council. I think the other restrictions other people have posted are fair though.

With all these releases maybe it's time to put ownership onto players and maybe just check the winning list at the end of each day/ tournament and if they made any mistakes they are disqualified. Harsh yes , so you better get it right and get your mum to check it :D


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:09 am 
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How is the voting formulated?

is this a vote of "play as the game is written" vs "make changes to allow competitive play" with the changes to be debated and finalised at a later date?

or are there a range of options put forward to vote from with preferences in a senate-esk election?


for what its worth, I would like to see:
No D weapons, no templates larger than large blast/standard flamer template
No AV 15 - no deploying on landing pad outside of deployment zone shenanigans (if that is really a thing)
Force org is "Primary +1" (ie 1 of allies, inq, LOW, dataslate etc but 1 addition only)

and with repeating codicies, I would personally like to see the option to take a codex once as a primary and once as an allied detachement within a team. as an example one person can run inquisition as a primary detachment and another team member can have inquisition as a secondary detachment.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:51 am 
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I agree with Matt's suggestions.

On dataslates - these are available as pdf's. The same format as FAQs. If you can read this forum you can read a dataslate! So to disallow Dataslates based on 'availability' is IMHO is a bit silly - they are more readily available and cheaper than actual hardback books, and much easier to borrow! The rules sections are only a few pages and something that can be printed out to show your opponent before a much without taking up too much time. Aside from the 'everyone has tank-hunter' Tau supplement - most of the dataslates aren't really game-breakers (according to reviews).

Just my 2c

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:15 am 
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There have been a few posts where people have mentioned lack of access to material as an issue.

To be absolutely clear about this, the ATC is not a normal tournament and not knowing codexes or TO's not having copies of dataslates is genuinely not an issue or even a concern.

The reason is that the lists are checked by the TOs, all team members, and the captains of other teams, and then they are available for several weeks for the teams and players to review.

To see why the ATC-veterans are so much less concerned about this, here's a chance to peek behind the curtain and see just one example of a post that breaks down an opponent's army list (I have done one for each army from each state, and all our team's players have contributed insight and info.
Quote:
NEW ZEALAND PLAYER 4:

ARMY PRIMARY DETACHMENT : Chaos Daemons

PRIMARY DETACHMENT:
HQ1 - Warlord : Kairos Fateweaver [300pts]
WS1 BS6 S5 T5 W5 I2 A1 LD9 (counts as 10 when casting) 4++
Flying Monstrous Creature, Psyker level 4, can only cast using one head (change/pyro/div or change/telepathy/bio) each turn.
Staff allows a single D6 to be rerolled each player turn.
Important: This tournament has FAQed allowing the reroll to work while FW is off the table. That means he can (and probably will) stay in reserve and still play an annoyingly vital role.

HQ2a : Herald of Tzeentch (45pts), Exhalted reward (30pts), Mastery level 3 (50pts), Disc of Tzeentch (25pts), [150pts]
HQ2b : Herald of Tzeentch (45pts), Exhalted reward (30pts), Mastery level 3 (50pts), Disc of Tzeentch (25pts), [150pts]
HQ2c : Herald of Tzeentch (45pts), Mastery level 3 (50pts), Disc of Tzeentch (25pts), [120pts]

WS3 BS4 S3 T3(4) W2 I3 A3 LD8 (counts as 10 when casting) Jet Bikes, but note still T3
They are Mastery Level 3, so this unit makes 9 rolls.
Watching Daemon players generate powers is very boring, but note they MUST roll a 2 on the Divination Chart to receive Forewarning, or basically the army will fall apart. Make certain you are absolutely clear which Heralds (if any) have Forwarning.

Troop 1 : 11x Pink horrors of Tzeentch (11x9=99), [99pts]
Troop 2 : 11x Pink horrors of Tzeentch (11x9=99), [99pts]
Troop 3 : 11x Pink horrors of Tzeentch (11x9=99), [99pts]

WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 LD7 (counts as 10 when casting)
11+ generate 2 Warpcharge. 16+ generate 3 Warpcharge (Kill one from each unit to reduce to 1 Warp)
They reroll 1s, so hard to kill if the go to ground in terrain.

FA1: 19x Flesh hounds of Khorne (19x16=304), [304pts]
FA2: 19x Flesh hounds of Khorne (19x16=304), [304pts]

WS5 BS0 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 LD7 6+ 5++ for 16pts
2 wounds, S8 + for instant Death.
Collar of Khorne (Deny The Witch on 4+). Daemon of Khorne = Furious Charge
Beasts - move 12", not slowed by terrain (even when charging), Fleet (reroll run and charge), Move through cover (autopass dangerous terrain)
Scout - Will move forward 12" before the game starts. NB If they have 2nd turn, can charge in turn 1. If they have 1st turn, they can get the spells cast on screamers before you can shoot them.

FA3: 9x Screamers of Tzeentch (9x 25= 225), [225pts]
WS3 BS0 S4 T4 W2 I4 A3 LD7 5++ Jetbikes (move 12, turbo up to 24")
Can swap all attacks (inc charge bonus) for one S5 AP2 Armourbane (2d6 pen) attack
Slash - turbo over a unit and cause D3 S4 AP- hits per screamer, from direction of closest screamer (does not ignore cover)
Real purpose: This unit will be joined by 3 Heralds of Tzeench, given a 4++ save (by Forboding), and then boosted to 2++ by the Grimoire (on a roll of 3+, which Fateweaver can reroll). Once that is up, the unit rerolls 1s, so effectively has a 2++ rerollable and is almost unkillable.

How to deal with this:
Ignore the screamers - you aren't going to be able to hurt them until they fail Grimoire, or fail Forboding, or get a Warpstorm -1 invulnerable (Which Fateweaver can reroll)
Kill Fate weaver - Without the reroll they become a lot less reliable, and on a 2- the grimoire reduces their Inv by 1 instead of boosting it by 2.
Casting Misfortune or equivalent to make them reroll successful saves makes them about 6 times easier to kill (ie they only have a 2++ lol). Note they DTW on a 4+
Kill them before they get to cast anything (turn 1)
Remember that one of the unit never gets affected by the Grimoire - the vital one carrying does not benefit from the affect. He will still LOS, but it is worth trying Barrage, snipers, blocking your own vision to any model except that one before firing, slash attacks with your model ending its move closest to this herald, moving infantry to give all other models in the unit cover save except him then use Focus Fire - he is vulnerable to Instant Death by S8+, about 18 times easier to kill than the rest of the unit, and absolutely vital to making it work.

In short, ignore the screamers - you aren't going to be able to hurt them until they fail Grimoire :D
Quote:
Example game (
(Played against American tournament champion MarkyMark to try the list out)

MarkyMark fielded 9 screamers with 3 heralds, and a front line of hounds. The placement of the screamers is important; they are in an anti-blast formation on turn 1 since they don't get have their crazy invulnerable.

My opponent said the main purpose of the flesh hounds was to draw most fire while the screamers get their powers cast, but that they are also very deadly in combat themselves.

I played a very tight castle formation, lured half the dogs off to a Manticore to keep them busy, used masses of firepower and blocked with infantry pretty well. Even with that, the only thing that kept me in the game was the fact I completely ignored the screamers for a few turns and let them have their wicked way.

Image

The reason I was letting them run riot was because the screamers take an average of 216 BS4 bolter shots each to kill (or 64 missiles) to kill. Each. E-A-C-H.
In the meantime, you can even see a Dread knight pause 1" away from them and fire a torrent over their heads at the hounds. When a DK won't charge a daemon unit you know it's something special :D

So the best I could do is feed them low value targets until they finally failed either the grimoire or the forwarning spell, and then smack them. He should have turboed them off when they failed the grimoire IMHO, but he underestimated the Plasma HQ and blast weapons, and hadnt expected Vendttas to hover rotate and fire.

Conclusion: Screamers are the only foot based assault unit I'd consider adding to an FMC list. If you play against them, ignore them until the grimoire fails or tie them up with stubborn/fearless bodies. Do not waste firepower on them."

So there may be a 100 reasons to preclude some of the new publications, but for ATC purposes access to material is not one of them. The team gets grade-A secret info 24/7 until the day of the event :D


Last edited by Matt-ShadowLord on Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:17 am 
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and with repeating codicies, I would personally like to see the option to take a codex once as a primary and once as an allied detachement within a team. as an example one person can run inquisition as a primary detachment and another team member can have inquisition as a secondary detachment.
This makes sense to me too. Allows some strong combinations outside of the norm, so that weaker codex's can still be strong without a team full of nothing but cheese.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:11 am 
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I will actually agree with Tyson's suggestion, one race slot for allies/one race slot for primary seems quite alright, though I still think paying the slot tax for data slates is the way to go (you want your free tank hunters and preferred enemy marines you gotta pay for it)

and agreed Matt, rules availibility is a non-issue for this tournament, but TO's may take a leaf out of the ATC's restrictions book if it works particularly well (hence why it's even come up I assume)


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:54 am 
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I went to ATC last year and didn't get to take a list that I would normally use , took the said screamer council and did crap. This event is hard core gaming , your playing against people who know how to deal with things like a one trick gimmic like a screamer council. I think the other restrictions other people have posted are fair though.

With all these releases maybe it's time to put ownership onto players and maybe just check the winning list at the end of each day/ tournament and if they made any mistakes they are disqualified. Harsh yes , so you better get it right and get your mum to check it :D
Maybe we should also ban WAGs whilst on tour as well, might have been a contributing factor :wink:

Checking the winning list at the end of the day wouldn't work. Imagine how much longer the event would be if I had too check a list and compile the final results after the last game :(

Or what if the winner is disqualified and you were one of the players they had played that day wouldn't you feel disadvantaged and just a bit agrieved?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:02 pm 
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Quote:
I went to ATC last year and didn't get to take a list that I would normally use , took the said screamer council and did crap. This event is hard core gaming , your playing against people who know how to deal with things like a one trick gimmic like a screamer council. I think the other restrictions other people have posted are fair though.

With all these releases maybe it's time to put ownership onto players and maybe just check the winning list at the end of each day/ tournament and if they made any mistakes they are disqualified. Harsh yes , so you better get it right and get your mum to check it :D
Maybe we should also ban WAGs whilst on tour as well, might have been a contributing factor :wink:

Checking the winning list at the end of the day wouldn't work. Imagine how much longer the event would be if I had too check a list and compile the final results after the last game :(

Or what if the winner is disqualified and you were one of the players they had played that day wouldn't you feel disadvantaged and just a bit agrieved?
True on all accounts Gary, this year I'll come on my own and stay out late each night getting drunk and watching strippers that should help :D they have strip clubs in Hobart right


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:45 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
I went to ATC last year and didn't get to take a list that I would normally use , took the said screamer council and did crap. This event is hard core gaming , your playing against people who know how to deal with things like a one trick gimmic like a screamer council. I think the other restrictions other people have posted are fair though.

With all these releases maybe it's time to put ownership onto players and maybe just check the winning list at the end of each day/ tournament and if they made any mistakes they are disqualified. Harsh yes , so you better get it right and get your mum to check it :D
Maybe we should also ban WAGs whilst on tour as well, might have been a contributing factor :wink:

Checking the winning list at the end of the day wouldn't work. Imagine how much longer the event would be if I had too check a list and compile the final results after the last game :(

Or what if the winner is disqualified and you were one of the players they had played that day wouldn't you feel disadvantaged and just a bit agrieved?
True on all accounts Gary, this year I'll come on my own and stay out late each night getting drunk and watching strippers that should help :D they have strip clubs in Hobart right
:( I must have missed that bit :(


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:29 pm 
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Well I got a strip show last year, oh that's right I brought a wag with me :P it is in Hobart this year right :oops:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:14 pm 
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Gold.
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Aww.
Yiss.

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