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Dungeon bowl Feedback - WestGamer
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 Post subject: Dungeon bowl Feedback
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 4:23 pm 
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So, with the season proper over how did people find the dungeon bowl?

The rules set was familiar but the board and turn sequence anything but. Did you enjoy the diversion? Any suggestions to improve it?

I had a million ideas many of which I shelves for faster game play or simplicity. More traps and multiple levels were on the agenda.

My next challenge is to come up with a 4 player version (dungeondeathbowl!) :twisted: we don't want those lovely custom pitches going to waste now.

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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 4:37 pm 
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DUNGEONDEATHBOOOOWWWWWLLLL!!!!! :shock: :mrgreen:

I loved Dungeonbowl, Dave. I thought the maps were all good - could have bumped the more "lethal" dungeons forward to round 2, but otherwise the progression was good. Timed turns combined with the two hour match time limit really made the game hectic, tactical, and super-fun - honestly, each match felt like a friggin' marathon. :lol:

Can see why some players decided to give this season a miss, but as a two-yearly alternative to the standard game I think it's brilliant. Count me in for Dungeonbowl 2015!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 4:55 pm 
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I asked for feedback from my opponents and didn't get much negative. The Dungeon really screwed with my team, but that's all good. I had great fun making my pitch.

One issue I had was to do with stalling. Now this is a perfectly viable tactic, but boring as anything when you're sitting there for 1-2 hours and your opposition is firmly entrenched in narrow corridors watching the clock tick down. As this isn't normal Bloodbowl, and designed to be a more fun and exciting change, I might suggest adding something to prevent this. What about the ball blows up like a fireball/thrown bomb after 8 turns of being out of the chest if no one scores? What about the same thing but it blows up at the start of the turn for the team who has the ball if they roll a 1? I might also suggest a max number of players allowed on the pitch at any time to assist with this.

Thanks to everyone for a great season.

Joel

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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 4:57 pm 
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I also really liked the 3 week turnaround.

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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 5:18 pm 
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feedback:
* timed turns was a plus (just remembering to reset timer was an issue at times :oops:)
* 2 hours for a game was too long - maybe players who like a more stately pace prefer 2 hours for a game but it felt like it dragged on at times.
* would actually prefer first TD wins over set game time.
* soft teleport rules and no +1 to armour rolls for hitting the floor made it feel a bit of a namby-pamby dungeon season...

if next dungeonbowl season retained the same format i would most likely opt out...nothing against my opponents this season, who were all great, but the format just didnt suit...

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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 5:30 pm 
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Quote:
feedback:
* timed turns was a plus (just remembering to reset timer was an issue at times :oops:)
* 2 hours for a game was too long - maybe players who like a more stately pace prefer 2 hours for a game but it felt like it dragged on at times.
* would actually prefer first TD wins over set game time.
* soft teleport rules and no +1 to armour rolls for hitting the floor made it feel a bit of a namby-pamby dungeon season...

if next dungeonbowl season retained the same format i would most likely opt out...nothing against my opponents this season, who were all great, but the format just didnt suit...
I also liked the timed turns. I liked the 2 hours as well as it made planning the games easier. "Yes dear, I will be home by such and such a time because it can't go for more than 2 hours."

Haha, if it was first touchdown wins ... nice idea!

I would not expect the next dungeonbowl season to be exactly like this one. That certainly doesn't seem the Brawl way.

Joel

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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 6:46 pm 
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Thanks guys, keep it coming :)
Quote:
* timed turns was a plus (just remembering to reset timer was an issue at times :oops:)
* 2 hours for a game was too long - maybe players who like a more stately pace prefer 2 hours for a game but it felt like it dragged on at times.
* would actually prefer first TD wins over set game time.
* soft teleport rules and no +1 to armour rolls for hitting the floor made it feel a bit of a namby-pamby dungeon season...
A few things here are the challenges of the format. Last year when I was thrashing this out people were not keen on doing traveling for a short game. Even the run-away leader rule was met with disapproval for the risk of a short game. So I think 1st to score is definitely a non-starter. A reduced game length is certainly an option though... 90 mins?

Given the hazards in some dungeons I softened the teleporter rule deliberately. The Castle of Aaarrrggghhh and Dukes of Hazzut were devastating to some teams with players out for the game pretty quickly. Combine that with teleporters that you are forced to use and games could have ended very quickly.

The +1 armour was still there, just a little harder to pull off. Based on previous years Dungeonbowl feedback there was a strong sense that it favored bash teams. I hope this season was a little more balanced... or at least reasonably fair across all teams. Given we have dwarves, chaos, elves and slaan, experienced and first season teams, all in the play-off's I'm pretty comfortable that was achieved.

Stalling is a tough one to manage. I think if you are going to employ this as a tactic then be open about it. Don't kid yourself, it's obvious when you do it, so show your opponent some respect, wipe it off the total game clock and move on with the game.

As always when messing with the format it's impossible to please everyone. It also has to work as well for new players and veteran coaches, starting teams and experienced teams.

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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 7:31 pm 
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I won't say I was cheated as that is not fair to my opponents, but the game clock ended with me one move away from scoring the winning touchdown TWICE! :evil: :(

Possibly a rule to allow additional time to finish the required move? Not sure really what to do to fix this, but do like the idea of having a limited number of turns to score before the ball is whisked to a random teleporter or something like that. Also, I am all for carnage and all, but the number of cards that didn't work made it a lot more of a gamble to take any. I didn't take the chef, but it is not as bad value as made out. A bit hit and miss, but re-rolls are gold in the dungeon!

More traps, though to simplify the pits, how about just a straight KO for a regular pit and a Badly Hurt (not counting towards cas as per other traps) for a spiked pit? Would make it brutal and remove hassle of trying to climb out (and all the mechanics that go with it).

Very enjoyable and tense affair had every game in the end so no real dramas

Mostly just nit picking as overall I had a blast and with a shade more luck I could have pulled a couple more wins.

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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 8:37 pm 
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Frosty's point of 2 hours being too long... I think that's a fair enough point. Timed turns and the nature of the game made the first 90 minutes the most crucial time of all my games, and without exception it always felt like two hours. 90 minute games would be a change I could get behind. :)

Your point of being one move away from scoring, Fanglord... in my games, we always played that when the alarm went for the turn, the last declared move was played out, and when the alarm went for the game, the final turn could be played out in full. Was your issue about the final turn being interrupted by the game clock? If so, is this perhaps something we could fix by instating the "understanding" that me and my opponents had as a rule?

Stalling... I feel this issue is similar, but somewaht different from holding up scoring in regular seasons (to either bash the opposition or wind down the clock) mainly because, as Joel said, both players are essentially sitting there doing nothing. Not much to be done here, unfortunately - every player has their own concept of "the spirit of the game", and this has to be respected (or at least tolerated). At a tournament level, this issue would likely be addressed when marking your opponent's sportsmanship rating... could such a rating be introduced in regular seasons? If so, how what would a player stand to gain from a good rating?


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 8:42 pm 
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While the dungeon was good fun, I think it was way too random for my liking. IMO took a large amount of skill out of the game as if you rolled well on teleporters and got a lucky chest opening there wasnt much your opponent could do.

I thought the game favoured the manouverable team teams, however if they didnt get the ball they were in a whole lot of trouble, so i guess that balanced out.

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 Post subject: Dungeon bowl Feedback
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 8:46 pm 
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On the rules:

Fairly solid rules set. They worked well enough, and it was great to see people forced into a 4 minute turn maximum. Hopefully it helped people that struggle to pick up the pace. My main concern was the amount of change from the original rules. Anyone who has played Dungeonbowl will notice some changes which made a considerable difference.

Kudos for trying something different, but I would much prefer either the standard Dngeonbowl rules that BRAWL has used previously, or the actual Dungeonbowl rules, which is what Rock'N'Rumble use for their Dungeonbowl season.

On the schedule:

I understand that there are many games out there that people want to play, and work schedules suck. But for me, thanks to a forgiving wife, one game every three weeks is not enough. Even playing RnR as well, it's still not enough. There was periods during this season that I was game less for a month and a half, and due to some major scheduling conflicts, I had to forfeit to Oldback so he could play on, which meant my last game was about two months ago. If I had made the finals, I would have stepped back, because the season 'felt over'.

Odd numbers:

Again, I understand this is an issue, but between five commissioners, I would have fathered have a ringer in the league than the bye/makeup situation. It helped to contribute to a lengthy period without games.

It's unfortunate, but I think if the schedule was to continue at three weeks with fewer games, I wouldn't feel right playing. BloodLust's suggestion of a rookie league is good, and something like that might work with am altered schedule, but three weeks is tooling for me.

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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 9:03 am 
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I think it was fairly balanced, again the agile team when they had the ball had the advantage, if the bashing team had the ball they had the advantage, basically who ever had the ball had the advantage just like a normal game of bloodbowl.

I liked the layout of the dungeons and enjoyed the change of pace that this season provided but:

1) I would rather 2 weeks per game and if there is a concern about schedule have at about game 4 and 7 an extra week for catch up.
2) Perhaps state that once the game clock has started no one can look at it. I know time wind down is a tactic and even used it a bit against Frosty (sorry), I found that when we didn't see the clock it made a relaxed game.
3) 90 min games would be alright. Perhaps also allow finishing of the currently declared action, which I allowed in my games. Not the turn though just the action, I'm nice but not that nice.
4) Rather than doing 1st score wins have it as best 2/3, Meaning that either the clock winds down or whoever can score 2 TD first wins. This means that both Bash and Agile teams want to keep scoring and may prevent camping.
5) While I only really saw traps being used once in my games perhaps a simpler method (KO for pit and BH for spike) and more of them.
6) I liked the trap doors I really did, but please state that a roll of 1 is a fail on the str roll. Stupid light snotlings.

Thank you to the Commissioners for trying something different with this season and I have enjoyed it. I do look forward to the newer seasons and the continuing pain of Bloodbowl.

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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 4:51 pm 
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feedback - part 1

cards
The problem is that some of the 100k and 50k cards are just money thrown away, there have always been 'crappy' cards but they still worked. The following don't (maybe more subject to last lot of dungeon bowl cards questions):

100k cards
Good Karma
scutt's scroll of weather magic
lurve potion
lewd maneuvers

50k cards
dirty trick
blatant foul

Special team plays
come to papa
perfect kick

misc mayhem
bad year git
hometown fans
sprinkler malfunction
incoming
Rowdy fans
that babes got talent

thats potentially 250k of inducements thrown away if unlucky

3 suggestions


1) use the remaining misc mayhem cards to replace dud cards from other 3 play decks (dirty/special/karma)
2) count the dud cards as a +1 modifier when trying to bring ko'd back into play mid drive (one use only per card)
3) create special dungeon only cards to replace the dud 100k and 50k cards (players can put forth ideas and commish make final choice)

getting the cards fully working will help especially with a new team making the grand final/semi's/battle for 3rd when they cant take merc's, star players and wizards and may end up with 1.5 million to spend and have to take cards to be able to spend more than 1.3 million inducements (1.2 million undead; 1.15 million for gobos; and 1.1 million for halflings).


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 4:55 pm 
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I'll start by saying I was a big fan of the format

notes:

3 week turnaround:


personally I prefer a game every 2 weeks and would like to go back to 10 rounds per season, but at the end of the day its what ever is best for the league. One idea is having 2 different leagues going at the same time but like with english soccer a team can play in both FA cup and Uefa cup. Players could play in one or the other or both with the same team or both with different teams. Make the main league 3 weeks and the minor on a 4 week round, a number of us have played in two leagues before with the state league but swapping the other league from 2 to 3 weeks may work out better. And this way next time there is a dungeon bowl a player could choose to be in one or both formats.

Quote: Hymn
1) I would rather 2 weeks per game and if there is a concern about schedule have at about game 4 and 7 an extra week for catch up.
+1 - when i was at curtin uni we had weeks 5 and 10 off to catch up so why not brawl having catch up weeks

time

I really liked the 2 hours time per game in this format.

Two hour game with 4min timed turns is just like playing at a sandgroper tounament, sure were not overly anal re 4 min turns but by rights we can be so this shouldnt be a big thing, sure this can be a bit more draining played this way but perhaps next season players could agree to a few mins break every 8 turns (off clock) if they can spare the time, or have both coaches agree not to use the 4 min timer just play for the 2 hours with a gentlemans agreement not to waste time intentionally.

This season going frantic and playing as many turns as possible was a great way of getting experience, I would have averaged 30 turns a game.

time wasting

having experienced a game where my opponent had the ball for almost 2 hours and intentionally sat boxed in by his own players I understand the time wasting point, (especially when I opened the way through to the TD line unapposed to try encouraging scoring), it is a tactic of the game and it forces a player to work out how to deal with this and I see it no different to my rd1 state league game where the orcs recieved the ball first half and ground me into the ground before scoring rd8 (giving me enough time to throw a quick pass) before getting the ball back in the 2nd half rd1 (my bad luck his overly good luck) and grinding me into the ground until the game was over. And at Ausbowl Virral stood next to the line for about 4 turns choosing not to score so i couldnt recieve the ball for another drive - tactically a smart game move.

dungeons

I agree with Doobleg "could have bumped the more "lethal" dungeons forward to round 2"
----- with the exception of rd4 vs Runejack the traps themselves had no real impact on the game as too few on the pitch. I wouldnt suggest more of the bigger 2x2 bottomless traps but more of the smaller ones wouldnt go astray

I only ended up in one pit i could climb out of but it wasnt really any different from coming back into play from ko except you come out where you went in which adds a tactical element to the game as you will have a player in that area which the opponent may need to man up on to stop a scoring option if he gets out

other points

quotes Runejack:
What about the ball blows up like a fireball/thrown bomb after 8 turns of being out of the chest if no one scores?
--im not a fan of this as it penalizes slow teams trying to score like dwarfs


quotes Runejack:
I might also suggest a max number of players allowed on the pitch at any time to assist with this.
----I would be fine having a max of 11 per side on the pitch, I felt the inducement money used on mercs and star players fixed this prob for starting teams, but to be facing an experienced team in the semi's or grand final when youve a new team with 11 players vs an experienced team with 16 players on the pitch is a nasty hill to climb


Im fine with keeping the teleporter rules as they are, as it was they cost me a few td's when i tried to use them with the ball carrier


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