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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:11 pm 
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Hi Guys and Girls,

I haven't touched Fantasy is a pretty long while, but after speaking to Yordan at Ultimates, I'm quite keen to get back into the system. :D

Now I'm not new to list building, but are there any specific things that have cropped up I guess in the last year or so that are worthy of special mention before I embark on the hobby process of building it all?

To give you an idea of what I'm sort of after:
- What level of magic resistance is recommended? Any..?
- How prevalent are monsters? I saw another thread with 4x flying monsters and more than a few armies I have seen feature two or so.
- Fire seems like a handy thing to have available... Are there many downsides?
- Any armies currently dominating the scene?
- What extreme builds should be catered for?

Plus anything else people feel like enlightening me on..? :D

Cheers,
Nick

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:28 pm 
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Hi,

Magic resistance is far less than it was in 7th so dont get too worried about it.

Monsters are a big part of 8th but not used too much because of cannons floating around in most lists.

Based on what you want it might be worth letting us know what army your thinking of?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:39 pm 
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I was looking at finally getting the Empire done.

I was hoping for a somewhat balanced approach to things (clear emphasis on melee though).

Probably something like:
- Wizard (level 4, Lore of Beasts on Griffon - maybe -)
- 2x Warrior Priests
- Captain BSB
- 2x 40 Halberdiers plus 20x Free Company detachments
- 40 Spearmen, or maybe swordsmen (for WS4, 5+ and 6++)
- 2x 4 Demigriffons
- Celestial, Luminark, Cannon
- Huntsmen (or maybe just small archer detachments)

Something like that... :D

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:41 pm 
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Looks good.

I dont play empired but things I fear facing are cannons and stanks.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:09 pm 
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Ah it will be good to have you back!

Currently my must beat list looks like this:
- level 4 nurgle daemon prince
- skull crushers
- banner of the world dragon white lions
- steam tank
- entire army of 1+ or 2+ armour
- skaven tar pits supported by big guns and 13th
- dark elf avoidance (theoretical still, but the theory scares me)
- beasts of nurgle

Details:
Daemon Prince
This horrible horrible beasty tends to come packing WS9, -1 penalty to hit it in combat, 1+ armour, 5+ ward, a charm shield to bounce the 1st cannon ball that hits it, a dragon bane gem to make it all but immune to metal magic, the ability to heal itself once in combat, A5 at S6, 5 spells worth of death magic, oh and its unbreakable.

Skull Crushers:
The hardest hitting monstrous cav in the game. 1+ armour, a total of A6 at S5 and WS5 per model. If your going to fight these you either need to SMASH them head on, or if flanking be sure to break them…..because if they hold and turn to face you…..

World dragon white lions:
A unite with a 2+ ward against all magical attacks. 3+ armour against shooting. And a whole load of stubborn S6 attacks in combat (high elves can fight in an extra rank) Expect to see these in units of 24 - 5,000, so your looking at taking 18 – 40 S6 attacks per round depending on unit size.

Steam tank:
The same unbreakable pain it always has been. It not has an initiative value and random movement making it a bit harder to avoid, and twice as hard to drop down a pit.

1+ armour army:
I think only empire can do this, but several others can make an army of 2+ armour, or field many tough units. These units can often beak rank and file basic troopers, so you need a better plan than “static combat res” to break them.

Skaven:
Haven’t changed. Getting stuck in a never ending mass of slaves while being blasted from the back of the board. It worked a year ago, it works now.

Dark elf avoidance:
Dark elves can field an army of fast cav and single models with a tone of shooting and blasty magic. Basically they shoot run, shoot run, shoot run, mob the survivors. However this is just theory, the book has only been out a week so we still have to see what can actually be squashed into a list.

Beasts of nurgle:
These are TOUGH, and shred light troops. T5, W4, -1 to hit in combat, and regen. Since they are daemons they are pretend unbreakable. These are one of the best units around at the moment, and the reason for it is most things that can actually hurt them (great weapons, lances) don’t have the armour or repeat hitting power to actually out grind them over several rounds of combat (because they are very unlikely to die outright in one round of combat).

Some other notes:
Monsters:
Are actually fairly rare at the moment. They are very vulnerable to war machines so can give up points very easily in a bad matchup. They also tend to be out ground by monsterous cav. As such people tend to spam them for target saturation, or they bring something unique to the list (e.g. stegs, greater daemons), or they are just so amazing its worth the risk (e.g. frost phoenix’s, chimeras, abominations). Some lists can also hide them reliably behind screens of monstrous units so that the cannon balls don’t bounce through (trolls and beasts of nurgle are the prime candidates here).

Chaff:
Small cheap units that are sacrificed to hold up more powerful units for one turn, and pull frenzied troops into silly places with the forced overrun. Having a few units of chaff, and units that can get rid of enemy chaff is very very handy indeed.

Magic:
Most people outside WA seem to think a level 4 for defensive purposes is almost mandatory. I strongly disagree. To avoid a magic essay I’ll just say that in my opinion you want to go big with magic or forget about it. There are few ways to generate additional dice these days, so you want to make every dice you have count. If your using magic I think you need to be able to throw two game winning spells per turn through part of the game to get your points worth out of wizard. Alternatively be able to spam so many little spells that an opponent just cant stop them all and they start stacking up e.g.
- if the battle lines have closed and your facing an opponent who is casting mindrazor and flesh to stone every turn your going to lose combats fast.
- if battle lines have joined and your opponent is casting ice shard, wildform, miasma, speed of light, and phas protection all in the same turn things also get out of hand.

The same sort of thing is applicable from range e.g. comet + dwellers, purple sun + black horror

The thing with magic is that the caster always (ok not always, but normally, without special circumstances) has the advantage. If they only have one good spell and you block it the wizards will never cause enough of an impact on the game to be worth it.

That is my highly controversial opinion.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:14 pm 
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I generally run absolutely zero magic defense too, and have never really felt like I needed it.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:35 pm 
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As an Empire player here are a few tips based around the kind of list you want.

-Don't put your Wizard on a griffon, it will get shot by every cannon and magic missile and be dead by turn 2

-Warrior Priests are great, and cheap too.

-If you are going to run 160 fairly weak infantry, just take Shadow magic. Okkams is just too good to pass up.

-Don't take both buff wagons, it becomes quite hard to get them both into 6 inch range. I'd take the Hurricanum and 2 cannons. Your state troops have low WS, and the +1 to hit is a god send.

-Small archers detachments are great for multiple rolls, they can be used as chaff or as bunkers for characters.

-Van Horstmans speculum is a life saver against certain characters like a Daemon Prince or Greater Daemon.

-If you are interested in flyers, take 1 or 2 captains on pegasus.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:30 pm 
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Quote:
As an Empire player here are a few tips based around the kind of list you want.

-Don't put your Wizard on a griffon, it will get shot by every cannon and magic missile and be dead by turn 2

-Warrior Priests are great, and cheap too.

-If you are going to run 160 fairly weak infantry, just take Shadow magic. Okkams is just too good to pass up.

-Don't take both buff wagons, it becomes quite hard to get them both into 6 inch range. I'd take the Hurricanum and 2 cannons. Your state troops have low WS, and the +1 to hit is a god send.

-Small archers detachments are great for multiple rolls, they can be used as chaff or as bunkers for characters.

-Van Horstmans speculum is a life saver against certain characters like a Daemon Prince or Greater Daemon.

-If you are interested in flyers, take 1 or 2 captains on pegasus.
I dont agree with everything here, but coming off the Tournament over the weekend, here are my experiences with an otherwise balanced list;
- Empire Characters are the life blood of the list. They create a synergy between certain units that you generally NEED for those units to function. Otherwise, they are just units of dudes... Warrior Priest + Combat Block, Master Engineer + War Machine, Captain of the Empire + Tarpit (Hold the Line + Steadfast!).
- Detachments arent worth it. I specifically chose not to run detachments so that the deployment phase wasnt dictated by special rules that mean blocks of troops have to be so close together.
- Choose your Magic Lore before you choose your playing style. Or the other way around - whichever it is, make sure your Magic interacts with your units the way you want (especially the signature spells). For example, do you want to win combats by causing more wounds than your opponent = Wyssan's Wildform. Do you want to win combat by not taking as many casualties as your opponent = Iceshard Blizzard (which has the added benefit for making the enemy at -1 Ld for their break check too). Which ever option you decide, choose the corresponding wizard wagon (Wyssan's + Hurricanum or Iceshard Blizzard + Luminark). Then, choose your magic items based on either receiving +1 Power Dice per phase or +1 Dispell Dice per phase. I would consider the Wizard Wagons the second most important entry in the Empire book after the Steam Tank.
- Always include a Steam Tank. They are multi-purpose, acting as either a Hammer or an Anvil, a Warmachine or a Chariot almost whenever you want it to! They are too good not to include in your list.

Ill leave it at that for now.
Im quickly learning what the whole Army Book has to offer and would be quite willing to leaf through any lists you post up.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:27 pm 
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Thanks for the advice guys. I'll think on it for a while and post up a more concrete list, plus some of the conversions that I have planned. :D

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:42 pm 
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This is what I was looking at as a 2,400pt list.

LORD - Battle Wizard, Level 4, Cloak of Ulric, Lore of Life
HERO - Warrior Priest, Great Weapon, Armour of Silvered Steel, Luckstone (GENERAL)
HERO - Warrior Priest, Heavy Armour, Enchanted Shield
HERO - Captain, BSB, Full Plate Armour, Opal Amulet, Charmed Shield
HERO - Captain, Pegasus, Full Plate Armour, Shield
HERO - Captain, Pegasus, Full Plate Armour, Shield
CORE - 35 Halberdiers, Full Command, Detachment 1) 13 Free Company, Detachment 2) 9 Archers
CORE - 35 Halberdiers, Full Command, Detachment 1) 13 Free Company, Detachment 2) 9 Archers
CORE - 48 Spearmen, Full Command
SPECIAL - 4 DemiGriffon Knights, Lance, Shield
RARE - Steam Tank
RARE - Luminark of Hysh

Pros:
- 160 infantry with 100 of those benefitting from Hatred in melee (Warrior Priests).
- 2x Pegasus Captains with 2+ saves to target smaller units and run down units.
- Level 4 Life to buff like mad and help with the grind. I also figured that with as many heroes as I have, if they aren't killed outright, she can heal them out thanks to the Lore attribute.
- Luminark to target monsters and offers 6+ Ward save to main melee units (Spears + Halberds).
- Demi-Griffon Knights for pain vs armoured targets.
- Smaller units to divert (Free Company + Archers).

Cons:
- Lots of points spent on small heroes.
- Infantry are all very squishy.
- NO CANNONS!?
- Only 2 major hammers, the rest are anvils and chaff is easy to remove.
- No obvious counters to a Daemon Prince or big gnarly other than buffing the target unit and hoping to outlast.
- General is only Ld 8 and lacks a ward save.
- Is small in unit sizes, so could probably get outflanked relatively easily.

Probably changes:
- The archers will probably go for a cannon. I just felt obliged to field a couple of little skirmisher units since I never have before.
- The Pegasus Captains may be swapped for more DemiGriffon Knights (I can get four instead of them, I just feel that the Captains provide a means to chase down little units without fuss where DemiGriffons may be left stranded).

Thoughts?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:48 pm 
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that is a lot of models. . .

. . .the list i am working on has less than 40 :shock: 8)


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:18 pm 
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It is... But then, I plan on magnetising all of them so there is no setup time. they are put away in formation into a case, and then pulled out to play.

I'm also looking to make more than a few unit fillers to break up the monotonous look of rank and file troopers.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:41 pm 
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Dropping the archers for a cannon would be a very good idea. One cannon is worth having but does not provide a reliable counter to any single target. Having a back up is a very good idea (tank + cannon).

I dont see the point of spears over halberds.....one extra rank of S3 attacks isnt going to scare anyone, and they are only slightly cheaper than the halberds for steadfast purposes.

In this list I think your BSB is more valuable than your general so I would recomend putting the 1+ armour on him instead.

Besides that it looks good. You could change the captains out for another demigryph unit if you fancy more whacking power, but the captains are good utility units. I would also try experimenting with light magic on your level 4 (really helps out those low WS troops), but life should work as well.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:18 pm 
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Thanks for your thoughts Boothy.

The Central Unit:
The Spears were that bit cheaper and I was chasing a larger unit for steadfast (and steadfast removal) purposes. The additional S3 attacks are kind of a by product.
Would it be worth paying the 7pts involved and getting Swordsmen instead? If steadfast is what I'm aiming for, size matters.

Keeping the points the same, here are the corresponding sizes:
- Spears x 48
- Halberds x 40
- Swords x 34
*Regardless of the size or whether they have shields, the Luminark will grant them a 6++.

48 seems hefty enough, but is rather lacking in actual damage. The 40 is good, but then, 48 may just break the camel's back for steadfast removal vs opposing units. 34 seems way too small for an Empire "anvil" even with WS4 and a 4+... Something to play with I guess and decide. :D

Archers vs Cannon:
- A cannon is almost guaranteed. I may split up the Free Company into even smaller detachments. This does mean that they no longer threaten disruption (13 unit size was deliberate), but I now have four (very) little units to divert and annoy with instead of two.

Life vs Light:
I have really considered Light. Light looks as if it could bolster things to an almost auto win round of combats (WS10 / I10 / ASF applied to all Empire infantry within 12"..?!) and all spells help solve aspects of the Empire army (Ld, damage or similar). But then, the Steam Tank (which can be game changing) only needs to sit nearby to benefit from the Lore of Life and keep churning away. Life also can neuter any unit which a big beasty goes running into by boosting T by +4.

General or BSB:
Since Ld 8 is quite prevalent in the list, importing the better save onto the BSB seems wise. I may give him Full Plate Armour, Enchanted Shield and Dawnstone (1+ rerollable in melee, 2+ rerollable otherwise).

Captains vs DemiGriffons:
- Would it be worth in your opinion Boothy adding magic items on these guys? I was half tempted by Van Horstmans Speculum and using him as my Daemon Prince / character disabler.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:33 pm 
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A knowledgable opponent will assume you have speculum, but having 2 pegasus captains plus other characters will make him have to guess which one has it. Is it on a Pegasus or maybe on your Level 4? This can be very handy. The difference between life and light is the ability to bubble all of the light spells. Playing High Elves? Bubble Speed of Light and watch them cry. Facing a gunline? Bubble Phas Protection. Having leadership problems? Bubble Light of Battle. From experience Light helps Empire out alot more then Life does. You can always put the Standard of Discipline on your BSB for L9.


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