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 Post subject: Chariots ?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:33 pm 
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So I had a thought today reading my housemates Wolves codex, Logan Grimnar's Chariot comes with a 4++ even though he has a 4++. Does this mean every ones first though of the Necron's Chariot benefitting from the lord 3++ is actually incorrect as the Chariot itself doesn't actually come with an Invulnerable save?

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 Post subject: Re: Chariots ?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:36 pm 
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I played against a Bargelord at ETC and he wasnt giving the 3++ to the barge even though the lord has it.

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 Post subject: Re: Chariots ?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:26 pm 
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Yea at first read I think people where under the impression that cause its treated at a single model the chariot benefits from the 3++. Though it seemed to good to be true and then Logan got his and it my me think, hang on... has there been a mistake.

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 Post subject: Re: Chariots ?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:46 pm 
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Can't the rider take the hit instead? The rider still gets the 3++, so things like lascannons, mm and the like you would take on the rider and the lower strength stuff on the chariot it being av13


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 Post subject: Re: Chariots ?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:14 am 
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Yeah exactly. Thats why if you really truly want to kill a Bargelord you need to hit it with S10... enter Arjac in a drop pod :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Chariots ?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:04 am 
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By RAW it gets the 3++

but RAI im sure everyone thinks this isnt/shouldnt be the case

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 Post subject: Re: Chariots ?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:38 am 
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Quote:
Yeah exactly. Thats why if you really truly want to kill a Bargelord you need to hit it with S10... enter Arjac in a drop pod :twisted:
I would have thought with the new space wolf formations might even want to have vet guardsman in those drop pods for some truly disposable alpha strike units too tom.
Quote:
By RAW it gets the 3++

but RAI im sure everyone thinks this isnt/shouldnt be the case
But if your taking the low strength hits on the barge you probably won't need a save at all. But who can afford to take barge lords when your better off taking 2 transcendent clans :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: Chariots ?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:20 pm 
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It's cc that is the issue if it doesn't get it. As you can freely target the chariot.

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 Post subject: Re: Chariots ?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:24 pm 
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Yea but if the inv from the IC works for the chariot, why does the newest chariot have its own inv from the IC ???

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 Post subject: Re: Chariots ?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:12 pm 
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The answer I think lyes in the idea that GW games work on a permissive rule set. What this means is that every unit is given permission to perform a certain way given it's unit type weapon type ect.

In this situation you need to read the rules and see what expressive permission is given for the use of the chariot to use the riders rules and wargear. And as far as I am awear there is an exact use of this, it's the everliving rule applied to the chariot. Now it gets back up! But out side of this there is no mention ( from what I can tell ) that the chariot is given expressive permission to use any other rules or war gear of the rider or the rider can use of the chariot ( the rider now don't get quantum shielding ). Also how come the chariot don't get the 2+ save from that wargear? I think we all know that answer, but it's still war gear not transferred.

There is whole discussion about the permissive rule set and how GW have FAQ in this fashion , I from what I have heard.


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 Post subject: Re: Chariots ?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:46 pm 
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The issue being that as RAW the chariot & rider are treated as a single model.
And that the phase shifter grants the model a 3++ invulnerable.
And as far as I am aware vehicles never get armor saves, only cover & invuls.
Sure there is something in the rulebook.

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 Post subject: Re: Chariots ?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:36 am 
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Yeah treated as the same model is not the same as giving permission to use each other's rules. Obviously they are not the same model since either one can take the hits. What about the quantum shielding does the rider now have av13 ?


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 Post subject: Re: Chariots ?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:22 am 
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Quote:
Yeah treated as the same model is not the same as giving permission to use each other's rules. Obviously they are not the same model since either one can take the hits. What about the quantum shielding does the rider now have av13 ?
There is no each other. It's one model now.
And quantum shielding does not alter toughness so there is no effect.

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 Post subject: Re: Chariots ?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:00 am 
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Quote:
Quote:
Yeah treated as the same model is not the same as giving permission to use each other's rules. Obviously they are not the same model since either one can take the hits. What about the quantum shielding does the rider now have av13 ?
There is no each other. It's one model now.
And quantum shielding does not alter toughness so there is no effect.

those two sentences dont follow the same logic. if it is one model how can it have both an armour value and a toughness value?


I think the way to look at it is that it is two seperate models, each with their own individual rules, with additional special rules applied to both because of the chariot ruleset.

ie only the rules specifically mentioned as applying to both models will actually apply to both models. rules applying to only one model, ie lords invuln, barges av13, only apply to that model unless it specifically says in the rules that it is shared.

so if the chariot takes a hit, it gets allocated to the lord, only then does the 3++ get used because the lord has taken the hit and he is allowed his invulnerable save.

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 Post subject: Re: Chariots ?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:06 am 
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Quote:
Quote:
Yeah treated as the same model is not the same as giving permission to use each other's rules. Obviously they are not the same model since either one can take the hits. What about the quantum shielding does the rider now have av13 ?
There is no each other. It's one model now.
And quantum shielding does not alter toughness so there is no effect.
its treated as one model i believe the wording goes.
If there is no each other than how can the rider or the chariot take the hit?
I know what your saying and where your coming from but I am just repeating the same points that I have heard for the same arguments. Neil made a good point before when he stated how Logan has a different save to his chariot, there is a difference there.

GW may one day release an FAQ on this until then I guess it's up to TO's. I personally think that I would prefer a crons player to be spending there points on running a couple of these lords than spending there points on the really tooled up transcendent clans x 2.

It's kind of funny how me and you are debating this and I don't really care either way and Neil who's post this is has gone walk about :lol:


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