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40k - IC and infiltrate with a unit - Page 2 - WestGamer
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:50 am 
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Nup redeploys into deployment zone.

Ahh, forgot about that bit. Right you are

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:53 am 
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With the new rules, can you still be 12" from an enemy unit as long as you are out of sight?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:26 am 
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Mike - didn't we have this EXACT argument regarding shrike and terminators in 5th?

Surely GW have to FAQ it given the history?
Yep - shrikes FAQ still exists but the FAQ from 5th about joining prior to deploying is no longer present... Hence the issue

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:30 am 
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p39 - Independent Characters - "an Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve, by informing your opponent which unit he has joined"

"...he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes..."

p38 - Infiltrate "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule......"

Seems pretty clear cut to me that he has joined the unit while in reserve. Case closed!
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Yep thats how it works ICs pass special rules that affect units, eg D3 units gain infiltrate for Arihman (he gives it to himself and another units and what ever unit he joins infiltrates with him).
I would quote my earlier post also showing page numbers etc but I can't seem to do it :!: From the quotes with the actual rules and page numbers it seems a clear cut case that you can infiltrate an IC with a unit. If there is something that contradicts this it would be helpful to see the actual rules/page numbers. Just to add further clarification Infiltration is performed as part of your deployment P121 “When both players have deployed their main force, then they deploy their infiltrators”

It seems those that don’t read all the rules quoted above this way are referring more to the game mechanics. The question therefore becomes “when does an IC join a unit”. There are two parts in the rule book to say when this physically happens. One is the rule in regards to ICs in transports and actually reads P121 “However, if a unit is a Dedicated Transport, only the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined the unit) can deploy within it.” This together with Tomkatts quote above seems to confirm my reasoning that the controlling player has informed the opponent which unit the IC has joined and then deploys the unit with the IC.

Again this is all direct from the rulebook, with quotes and page numbers to back it. Is there anything written in the rulebook that contradicts this?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:35 am 
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Thats the problem though. The quotes do tell you exactly when you can attach an IC to a unit. Thats if you deploy him within coherency as the unit (so the unit is already on the table and cant infiltrate), if you deploy him in their dedicated transport (same again), or if you attach him to them in reserves (so again, no infiltrate). There is no option to add him to the unit before they deploy. I personally think that they intended you to be able to add an IC and then infiltrate the whole unit... but at the moment there is no way in the rules that you can.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:58 am 
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I can see the FAQ team sitting there going "really? we have to explain this again?!"

The guy is being deployed WITH the unit. The two are happening AT THE SAME TIME. There is no precedence. Shrike isn't sneaking up behind the lines to suddenly go ' oh that's right you guys didn't know how to infiltrate until we got to this exact point - you better head back!'

Sorry just arguing the voice of reason here - I have no units that would benefit from this - just makes my brain hurt!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:00 am 
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The reason I bring it up is so I can use it without cries of alarm in the future. After reading it back and forth I can't see how RAW I can. Intent is another matter...

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:05 am 
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Thats the problem though. The quotes do tell you exactly when you can attach an IC to a unit. Thats if you deploy him within coherency as the unit (so the unit is already on the table and cant infiltrate), if you deploy him in their dedicated transport (same again), or if you attach him to them in reserves (so again, no infiltrate). There is no option to add him to the unit before they deploy. I personally think that they intended you to be able to add an IC and then infiltrate the whole unit... but at the moment there is no way in the rules that you can.
:D My head hurts :D

The Dedicated Transport rule shows that an IC is attached prior to deploying which is how ICs are always played as far as I was aware. As quoted above the rule states "Plus any Independent Characters that have joined the unit". How did the IC join the unit other than the controlling player stating this IC is joining this unit and then deploying the unit? As infiltrate is a deployment then I cannot see any ambiguity.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:11 am 
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Mine too! :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:18 am 
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Precedent, and intention, and all that blah blah means that I play it that you can attach the IC then infiltrate the whole unit... but... because there is no clear RAW argument I would probably not make a tournament army based around any such combo until an FAQ came out.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:25 am 
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During deployment you attach Independent Characters to units by placing them in coherency.
Infiltrators are set after everything else deploys, so there is no way to attach them to a unit that doesn't have Infiltrate unless they are in reserve.

A unit kept in Reserves that has Infiltrate gains outflank (Having Infiltrate also confers the Outflank special rule to units of Infiltrators that are kept as Reserves -see page 40), but has to arrive using the Reserves rules.


Does that sound simple enough?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:29 am 
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Mine too! :mrgreen:
But it's your fault :cry:

Looks like it will be a TO ruling? As Outcast has agreed ICs can infiltrate then that's his tourney sorted. I wonder how KRAGS and AWG will rule?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:37 am 
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During deployment you attach Independent Characters to units by placing them in coherency.
Infiltrators are set after everything else deploys, so there is no way to attach them to a unit that doesn't have Infiltrate unless they are in reserve.

A unit kept in Reserves that has Infiltrate gains outflank (Having Infiltrate also confers the Outflank special rule to units of Infiltrators that are kept as Reserves -see page 40), but has to arrive using the Reserves rules.


Does that sound simple enough?
Hmmm... :D

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:43 am 
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During deployment you attach Independent Characters to units by placing them in coherency.
Infiltrators are set after everything else deploys, so there is no way to attach them to a unit that doesn't have Infiltrate unless they are in reserve.

A unit kept in Reserves that has Infiltrate gains outflank (Having Infiltrate also confers the Outflank special rule to units of Infiltrators that are kept as Reserves -see page 40), but has to arrive using the Reserves rules.


Does that sound simple enough?
So infiltration is not deployment? :?:

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:47 am 
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During deployment you attach Independent Characters to units by placing them in coherency.
Infiltrators are set after everything else deploys, so there is no way to attach them to a unit that doesn't have Infiltrate unless they are in reserve.

A unit kept in Reserves that has Infiltrate gains outflank (Having Infiltrate also confers the Outflank special rule to units of Infiltrators that are kept as Reserves -see page 40), but has to arrive using the Reserves rules.


Does that sound simple enough?

Infiltration P121 is a deployment.

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