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WestGamer :: Out of sequence shooting phases 40K - Page 2
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Out of sequence shooting phases 40K
http://westgamer.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=24417
Page 2 of 3

Author:  Orange [ Tue May 14, 2013 2:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Out of sequence shooting phases 40K

It's more of an absence of rules, than an actual rule itself, like the whole multitracker situation.

If people are going to be pedantic about not using multi-trackers outside the shooting phase, why stop there?

Author:  Wolflord [ Tue May 14, 2013 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Out of sequence shooting phases 40K

Quote:
Quote:
Nice find, I'd say case closed with that one! so 2x flamers in the shooting phase and 4 in overwatch and the impact field for more fun :twisted:

I hadn't commented on this thread because I assumed this was a joke rather than a conclusion. :D

Since it just came up in a discussion about why Tau are virtually invulnerable to Assault armies due to their "multiple weapon overwatch" I thought I better bring in an argument on the other side.

First though, before I go digging through the rule books, can someone confirm that anyone actually thinks that models can fire more weapons outside of a shoot phase than they can in their shoot phase? For example, Ravenwing bikers firing overwatch with their twinlinked bolter, their bolt pistol, a krak grenade and a plasma gun?

I don't want to spend time on debating an argument unless it's a real one. Thanks.
There are three different permutations of the rules (for a monstrous creature/multitracker):

a) 2 guns in the shooting phase, 1 gun in overwatch/intercept
b) 2 guns in the shooting phase, 2 guns in overwatch/intercept
c) 2 guns in the shooting phase, infinite guns in overwatch/intercept (and also infinite for non-mc/multitrackers)

There is NO rules support for a), however an argument can be made for b) and c)... in fact all the arguments made earlier for a) are actually arguments for c). Common sense and good sportsmanship pretty obviously point to b) being the answer, and if anyone argues against this I will have to actually go digging through rulebooks... but I hope common sense prevails :P

Author:  Elysium [ Tue May 14, 2013 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Out of sequence shooting phases 40K

Common sense is hard to come by these days though :lol:

Author:  Matt-ShadowLord [ Fri May 17, 2013 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Out of sequence shooting phases 40K

Quote:
There are three different permutations of the rules (for a monstrous creature/multitracker):

a) 2 guns in the shooting phase, 1 gun in overwatch/intercept
b) 2 guns in the shooting phase, 2 guns in overwatch/intercept
c) 2 guns in the shooting phase, infinite guns in overwatch/intercept (and also infinite for non-mc/multitrackers)

There is NO rules support for a), however an argument can be made for b) and c)... in fact all the arguments made earlier for a) are actually arguments for c). Common sense and good sportsmanship pretty obviously point to b) being the answer, and if anyone argues against this I will have to actually go digging through rulebooks... but I hope common sense prevails :P
I don't play Tau, so I don't really have a horse in this race. I had a look around and there's enough argument about it to indicate it's going to require an FAQ. The reason for this is page 69 of the Tau codex simply says:

"MULTI-TRACKER
A model with a multi-tracker can fire an additional weapon
in each Shooting phase."

By default, without an FAQ, Multitrackers don't do anything at all outside of the shooting phase. They don't assist with overwatch or other shooting outside of the shoot phase unless all models are allowed to fire all weapons when firing outside of the shoot phase. If all models were allowed to fire all weapons when firing outside of the shoot phase, Multitrackers still wouldn't do anything special outside of the shooting phase; you would just be getting what all models would have.

This isn't unique, apart from the Mulitracker rule some other things that are limited to working "in the shooting phase" include MC shooting, Walker shooting, Gun slinger, Grenades, Witchfire attacks.

But essentially, without an FAQ to say otherwise, the Multitracker doesn't do anything outside of the Shooting phase.
If all models can fire all weapons on overwatch, so can a Tau model with multitracker. If all models are restricted to firing only one weapon on overwatch, so is a Tau model with multitracker.

Author:  Elysium [ Fri May 17, 2013 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Out of sequence shooting phases 40K

I think the intention is clear without people trying to make a big deal out of it. Both weapons on overwatch. Normal shooting attack just at bs1 snap shot. :?

Author:  Orange [ Fri May 17, 2013 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Out of sequence shooting phases 40K

It really does just need an errata/FAQ. Neither of the current solutions, as they stand, are very satisfactory.

Author:  Vargr [ Fri May 17, 2013 5:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Out of sequence shooting phases 40K

Quote:
I don't play Tau, so I don't really have a horse in this race. I had a look around and there's enough argument about it to indicate it's going to require an FAQ. The reason for this is page 69 of the Tau codex simply says:

"MULTI-TRACKER
A model with a multi-tracker can fire an additional weapon
in each Shooting phase."

You know, by RAW, I believe that you'll find this allows Tau to shoot in the enemy's Shooting phase ("in each Shooting phase"). Tau = OP!!!111!!





:P

Author:  Matt-ShadowLord [ Fri May 17, 2013 5:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Out of sequence shooting phases 40K

That's the option D) Wolford left out lol

Author:  Matt-ShadowLord [ Wed May 22, 2013 10:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Out of sequence shooting phases 40K

Continuing this discussion. I thought it was actually complete after noone posted a rebuttal to the rule quote I made above, but have heard two events might allow multi trackers to work in all phases (Overwatch in enemy assault phase, Intercept in enemy movement phase) etc.

TOs can rule however they wish of course; it's their event. However if there is no rules based reason to believe that Multi Trackers do anything other than allow a model with a multi-tracker to fire an additional weapon in each Shooting phase, is there any reason to play it other than as written:
Quote:
"MULTI-TRACKER
A model with a multi-tracker can fire an additional weapon
in each Shooting phase."
Is there a reason to allow a generous interpretation of the rules in hopes it matches the way Tau players hope it will be written in an unreleased future FAQ?
Assuming "its obvious GW see overwatch as a mini shooting phase" is quite a leap and has no rules support.

Author:  Wolflord [ Wed May 22, 2013 10:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Out of sequence shooting phases 40K

Except there is no rule that limits you to only firing one weapon except in the shooting phase anyway. If you want to argue RAW then everyone gets to shoot all their guns on intercept/overwatch anyway. The fact that intercept and overwatch are 'like' shooting in the shooting phase means to me that both the single weapon allowance, and then the MC/Multitracker exception both apply.

Author:  Orange [ Wed May 22, 2013 10:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Out of sequence shooting phases 40K

Quote:
Is there a reason to allow a generous interpretation of the rules in hopes it matches the way Tau players hope it will be written in an unreleased future FAQ?
Is there a reason to allow a non-generous interpretation of the rules so it matches the way non-Tau players hope it will work, when RAW has clearly failed in this instance?

Author:  Matt-ShadowLord [ Wed May 22, 2013 10:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Out of sequence shooting phases 40K

Quote:
Except there is no rule that limits you to only firing one weapon except in the shooting phase anyway. If you want to argue RAW then everyone gets to shoot all their guns on intercept/overwatch anyway. The fact that intercept and overwatch are 'like' shooting in the shooting phase means to me that both the single weapon allowance, and then the MC/Multitracker exception both apply.
Except that's not actually an argument for Multitrakers to work outside the shooting phase; that's an argument that no model is restricted from firing only 1 weapon except in the shooting phase.

I attempted to cover that one above; "If all models were allowed to fire all weapons when firing outside of the shoot phase, Multitrackers still wouldn't do anything special outside of the shooting phase; you would just be getting what all models would have. [the ability to fire all weapons on overwatch or intercept]"

Quote:
Quote:
Is there a reason to allow a generous interpretation of the rules in hopes it matches the way Tau players hope it will be written in an unreleased future FAQ?
Is there a reason to allow a non-generous interpretation of the rules so it matches the way non-Tau players hope it will work, when RAW has clearly failed in this instance?
The RAW is pretty staightforward: "MULTI-TRACKER A model with a multi-tracker can fire an additional weapon in each Shooting phase."

To keep this as far away from personal as possible I'd like to point out the rule interpretation I am giving is not a minority view or some easter-egg I came up with.

If you find the idea that multitrackers dont work outside of the shooting phase overly legalistic or annoying, please direct that annoyance at the people posting on the rest of the interwebs rather than me :) . This is a widely discussed topic by people who care about it a lot more than I do lol

For example www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=123340
Quote:
"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on." - Page 21 BRB
Nothing about it being a shooting phase.
Quote:
Thanks for the replies! I really hoped that someone could help me find a loophole somewhere so I could fire two weapons in overwatch, but I guess that's not gonna happen as of now. hopefully It'll be FAQed and let us fire in overwatch, but time will tell I suppose.
http://armourpiercingpi.blogspot.com.au ... s-and.html
Quote:
An Infantry model can fire up to one weapon per Shooting phase; this is the normal shooting attack. Let us call it 's.' A Monstrous Creature model can fire up to two weapons per Shooting phase. This is twice the normal shooting attacks. It is '2s.' A Multi-Tracker allows an additional weapon in each Shooting Phase. This is not the normal shooting attack; it is an addition to the normal shooting attack(s). This is a bonus, a +1 limited to the Shooting phase. It's the fact that it's an additional weapon, an addition to the normal shooting attack, rather than an increase in the normal shooting attacks, that means it is restricted to a bonus in the Shooting phase rather than in both the Shooting phase and the Assault phase.
And so on:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/po ... 24413.page
http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/05/10-thi ... idnt-know/ "3) Multi-trackers don't allow multiple weapons to be fired in Overwatch – it's one weapon more than normal in the Shooting phase."
http://the11thcompany.freeforums.org/vi ... 97&p=52469
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthrea ... le-weapons
etc

Author:  Wolflord [ Wed May 22, 2013 11:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Out of sequence shooting phases 40K

Quote:
Except there is no rule that limits you to only firing one weapon except in the shooting phase anyway. If you want to argue RAW then everyone gets to shoot all their guns on intercept/overwatch anyway. The fact that intercept and overwatch are 'like' shooting in the shooting phase means to me that both the single weapon allowance, and then the MC/Multitracker exception both apply.

I can emptyquote myself forever here. Yes there is arguments to be made. But NONE of those arguments are tau with multitrackers firing only one weapon.

Author:  Outcast [ Wed May 22, 2013 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Out of sequence shooting phases 40K

Oh i gave up on this treat but have to jump in.

Matt ur wrong, the fact you show the wording for multi-tracks as any shooting phase should be enought to put it to sleep.

And they are all shooting phases regardless of when they are happening, otherwise they wouldnt say follow all the normal rules for the shooting phase.

I'm rule at Dogs of War they can fire 2 weapons for overwatch.

P.S the net doesnt get half the things right, nor do the yanks.
FAQ will prove me right.

Author:  Matt-ShadowLord [ Wed May 22, 2013 11:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Out of sequence shooting phases 40K

Quote:
Matt ur wrong, the fact you show the wording for multi-tracks as any shooting phase should be enought to put it to sleep.
I ask a small favour in order to keep this a rule debate rather than a rule argument: please consider other wording than 'ur wrong'. It makes it difficult to keep the tone conversational, thanks :D

But obviously I disagree that 'shooting phase' is the same as an Assault Phase or a Movement Phase or we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Quote:
FAQ will prove me right.
The FAQ will prove that an FAQ was required.
It might change the wording to allow Multitrackers to work in assault and movement phases; that wouldn't surprise me, and from that point it would be correct to play them as such.

Until then, if you are TOing an event you can rule however you wish. It might be worth at least having a look at some of the debates about these rules to see why most events are not currently allowing MTs to be used in all phases, even if you disagree with them.

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